When someone with an inferior mind starts losing an argument, this is inevitably what happens. Vulgarities and personal attacks. Geeting claims to be a "public policy," economics and even a linguistics expert, but resorts to the ad hominem when his arguments fail.
Lately, he's holding himself out as an expert on Charlie Chrin's proposed TIF for the Route 33 Interchange in Tatamy. This is without having attended a single meeting concerning the project. All his knowledge must come by osmosis.
Well, I'm by no means a Charlie Chrin fan. I've attended most of the meetings concerning this project. I started off opposed. Like most of us, I'm not too crazy about wealthy people who try to get richer. I was and remain concerned about all that farmland being gobbled up and the traffic impact on tiny Tatamy. But I've been swayed. I've posted a series of blogs explaining why, but let me summarize my points here.
1) It will bring 3500 jobs. This is according to a study financed by the person taking the risk of failure, not some goofy link to some vague, nonspecific study promoting inner city development.
2) I have personal knowledge, from discussions with economic develpoment people, that businesses are already in line to into the site.
3) There will be spin off jobs in the area surrounding the site.
4) There will be tough zoning control from Palmer To, which has pledged "no big boxes. Not gonna' happen."
5) This will bring tax relief to Easton schools, Palmer Tp and Northampton County, brought about by development and expansion of tax base.
6) There is no contribution of any public money for this project, not even the interchange.
7) There is no risk by any public entity. All risk will be assumed by Chrin. If he wins, we win because we get more tax revenue down the road. If he fails, we still get what we've been getting all along.
and, finally, the icing on the cake.
8) Chrin has pledged $2 million, which Stoffa will leverage for the preservation of 650 acrse of farmland.
55 comments:
What, Geeting was a petulant immature child, incapable of having a legitimate dialogue without resorting to obscenities?
Shocking.
And this from a boy who said his blog was "family oriented" or something like that. IPP will remember that one.
You don't need to be an expert to see that this project is a huge mistake. All you need is a rudimentary knowledge of land economics, and a peek at the real estate market trends.
Look at the market. Show us where you see the demand for new suburban commercial real estate. Show us where you see the demand for new office space. The assumptions underlying this project completely ignore the market trends. You're trying to pretend it's the bubble years again, but it's not.
Restating your talking points without answering any of my criticisms is all the proof I need that you're out of your depth on this.
Jon, your points are well taken. This is nothing but an Angle re-election stunt.
John,
I agree with your points. Angle himself should know that the occupancy rates in our other industrial parks are waning. Before long, the entire "LV Industrial park" concept will be one giant foreclosure. They charge outrageous rents that make it impossible for any busniess to prosper. Also, banks arent lending.
I dont see this changing anytime soon. Ignore O'Hare, he's just sore since his bunny jilted him out a 23rd story window, falling flat on his ass. Now he hates the world.
It's a hot spot for development and will no doubt be a job creator. The economic reasons we like it, however, are often referred to pejoratively as trickle down.
Geeting's market assumptions completely ignore a rudimentary knowledge of the three most important words in real estate: location, location, location. This a major blind spot. He paints a general picture of slow demand, while ignoring the local nature of desirability. Not everything fits into the same broad-brushed box. Major blind spot.
Wow Bernie, really? "When someone with an inferior mind starts losing an argument, this is inevitably what happens. Vulgarities and personal attacks." This, after just a few hours ago you called Tom Dietich "a little piece of shit". How hypocritical and unsurprising of you. You are the childish one, not Geeting. Grow up
jon, there are many blind spots, even when supported by statistical evidence. I can tell you that as someone involved in residential renting, contrary to the boom harped upon on your blog, acceptable tenants (those who pay) are in short supply in allentown.
only pols care about open space - oh i forgot so called farmers who want to be paid for nothing and environmental freaks. move on people for progress and quit the BS. By the way geeting you are once again a fool. seems to be your un-professional status
O'Hare has been on the dick for Stoffa and Angle for years. So what is the big deal?
"Geeting's market assumptions completely ignore a rudimentary knowledge of the three most important words in real estate: location, location, location."
He also conveniently ignores a study dome by the Dietrick group, as well as statements from people in our economic development arena. There are REAL businesses who will move in as soon as the Interchange is done.
"O'Hare has been on the dick for Stoffa and Angle for years. So what is the big deal?"
This remark proves my point. The commenter can't address the facts, so he attacks the person delivering the message ... anonymously.
"his, after just a few hours ago you called Tom Dietich "a little piece of shit".
Absolutely. He is a little piece of shit who stabs people behind the back and passes vicious accusations during public meetings, but is completely unwilling to own his words. He is exactly what I am talking about.
There was no effort to address the substance of what Angle did. It was just another smear, delivered by a coward.
Kinda' like you.
"only pols care about open space - oh i forgot so called farmers who want to be paid for nothing and environmental freaks"
Actually, Zorn, quite a few farmers (real farmers) care about open space. Some of them couldn't care less about environmentally sensitive land or parks, but want farmland preserved.
Bernie and all are falling for this build it and they will come pipe dream. Perhaps 10 years ago this would have worked. Look at the failed Bethlehem Township lifestyle mall project that has all the infrastructe and highways in place? Why do they think they can build this now in Palmer, Tatamy etc.?? Its about the LV market and what people here can really afford. Take it to the bank and mark it down now, that new interchange will be a big box warehousing distribution retail center.
But his is not about the LV market and what people here can afford. That's what you and Geeting simply do not understand.
This is about a much bigger market in which the LV is located. It is halfway between NYC and Philly, and an Interchange at this site will enable companies to put their product on the road right away, without tearing local roads in the process. According to a study performed by the Dietrick group, this project will create 3,500 jobs. And no, they will not be big warehouse jobs. I know this for two reasons. First, Chrin has specifically stated he does not want big boxes. Second, Palmer Township controls the zoning and will not allow it. "Not gonna' happen," said Dave Colver.
There are companies right now, just waiting for that Interchange so they can move here.
But let's assume you're right and Chrin falls on his face. If that happens, the County is no worse off than it is now. And Chrin bears the risk, nobody else.
Will there be retail? Yep, surrounding the park there will be the usual retail shops and the jobs they produce.
Overall, this is a beneficial project, especially since Chrin is the one taking the risk of failure. There are two negatives. The first is the farmland, but Chrin will enable the County to preserve almost as much farmland as he gobles. The second is Tatamy. The people there are going to see an increase in traffic. There may be less traffic in other areas overall, and less truck traffic, but Tatamy will see an increase in traffic.
Some of the people who live there have made suggestions that might be of some help. For example, don't start construction until the Tatamy bridge is done. At least, don't do both projects at the same time. The kids who live there should be given some kind of priority for getting to school. People who live there need to be sought out and asked for suggestions.
So, it's okay for you to call politicians pieces of shit but not for other (not-fatass) bloggers to call politicians out on their dickriding? No wonder you were disbarred, you suck at debating, politics, and life. Go do a pushup.
Do you have anything to say about the substance of this debate, or are you going to be like Geeting and Dietrich and just get personal?
And learn how to write a sentence.
John how do you explain the other developments in the 33 corridor which have exploded with businesses and jobs? from the new target on up through 248 even. You sound a bit put off and upset, but you aren't correct. The Lehigh Valley is one of the areas that has weathered the real estate crush better than most places...
And for the record, Bernie is right on the money with Deitrich, he is a little piece of shit, 10 minutes in a room with him will confirm that, plus he has bad breath. (way off topic, but lets be honest half the other posts are as well)
This is an inside deal by Angle and Stoffa. After the Gracedale scandal, no one trusts them anymore.
Inside deals are not publicly disclosed in open meetings, idiot.
Here's an example:
look at the new St. Luke's campus? How many new jobs?
ZERO
This is really a no brainer....buiild the interchange. Name me an interchange along 22, 78, or 33 in the valley that is not developed? If your goal is to create jobs and grow our local economy than bulld it. If you are anti development, anti suburban, lack vision, and want the status quo, then do nothing, and fight against this project.
anon 7:00
No one is saying it wont' be developed and interchanges are not developed. They are. The problem with this is that snake oil is being sold on some utopic smart growth type plan. These plans have failed in the Lehigh Valley due to market constraints. Particularly the median income and spending power of this area. The educational prowess of the area comes into play. Walmart, target, home depot, lowes, warehousing and distribution and vinyl sided apartment complexes is what works. Anything more that could be coming is snake oil. Now, why is this interchange needed when there are gobs of vacant office buildings, warehouses, new/used homes? Why is this needed when thousands of apartments units are being proposed in the Valley? If the developer wants to build this on his nickle... God bless him and God speed. But why does the taxpayer have to be put at risk when it shouldn't be??? That is what is being questioned here.
"Do you have anything to say about the substance of this debate, or are you going to be like Geeting and Dietrich and just get personal?"
Just like you did with Dietrich? The substance is you're crying that Geeting used vulgarity when you're guilty of the same thing. Hypocrite.
Dietrich was tagged for being a coward who lacks the intestinal fortitude to stand behind his own words. In short, he IS a little piece of shot, just like you. In that case, that IS the subtance of the debate.
So it's okay for Bernie to call people names but not Jon Geeting. Okay, got it.
When Dietrich makes a cowardly personal attack like you do, you betcha'. You see, I hate cowards, but you are one.
"If the developer wants to build this on his nickle... God bless him and God speed. But why does the taxpayer have to be put at risk when it shouldn't be??? That is what is being questioned here."
Where have you read ... anywhere ... that the taxpayer is taking any risk? That is simply untrue. All risk is being assumed by Chrin.
Where have you read ... anywhere ... that even a cent of taxpayer money is going to this project? The taxpayer will continue to receive the same amount of money that it is receiving now. The INCREASE in real estate value brought about by the new business will be used to finance bonds (not backed by the taxpayer) for infrastructure. If the development fails, Chrin and whoever buys the bonds will be on the hook. If it succeeds, we all win.
"look at the new St. Luke's campus? How many new jobs?"
Boy, are you nuts!
I'd love to see what this TIF development actually does in terms of jobs. Lets see, we will have stores (minimum wage) restaurants (less than minimum) and a whole slew of office space to inundate an area that has a high inventory of office space. SO , maybe some of those jobs will top out at a honey roasted minimum wage rate of maybe $10 per hour if you're lucky.
I'd like to see something that trnslates into a real job that a person can live on...and one that lasts longer than 3 months, if you're lucky. Look at AMAZON if you have any questions.
Lets me say this about St Luke's...they are there own biggest cheerleaders. Happen to know a few that work in mid-management. On the outside, its seems that business is booming. New riverside campus, recent acquisition of Warren hospital.
But their workforce has had a net decrease since 2007, as people who work there are laid off. They avoid the negative media coverage of this because they know how to do it with a smoke screen. Vacancies are not filled, and a few people a week lose their jobs. There is no job security for anyone at that hospital from housekeeping all the way up to physicians. Whoever made the comment about zero jobs at the new campus was spot on correct.
"I'd love to see what this TIF development actually does in terms of jobs. Lets see, we will have stores (minimum wage) restaurants (less than minimum) and a whole slew of office space to inundate an area that has a high inventory of office space. SO , maybe some of those jobs will top out at a honey roasted minimum wage rate of maybe $10 per hour if you're lucky. "
Let's see. Should we believe the speculation of some anonymous asshole who obviously attended none of the meetings? Or should we believe a study commissioned by Chrin, and the remarks of the Chairman of the Board of Supervisors of Palmer Township, who flatly stated, "No big boxes. Not gonna' happen."
"Lets me say this about St Luke's...they are there own biggest cheerleaders."
St. Luke's is a red herring, anyway. We are talking abut NEW businesses, not some LV hospital.
And it's "their," not "there."
Anonymous troll, you know you are not supposedvto be posting here.
"You don't need to be an expert to see that this project is a huge mistake. All you need is a rudimentary knowledge of land economics, and a peek at the real estate market trends."
Spoken like a captain of industry: a capitalist; a real estate baron. One who has made his fortune speculating in real estate. Yes, a well seasoned self-made affluent resident of the Lehigh Valley.
What's that you say? He'd rather be dead than be a capitalist? He's not made a fortune in RE or anything else for that matter? He is not seasoned, or affluent or even a resident of the Valley? He lives in Brooklyn? What the heck?
Seriously: when you look at the resume of this boob, how can he claim the right to any credibility at all on any subject?
I for one am sick and tired of listening to his balderdash and wonder why his blog is given a place of honor on this blog? Honestly Bernie, he has figured out a way to get his name flashed to every visitor of this site by including it in the title of his blog. Why don't you make it: Bernie O'Hare's Lehigh Valley Rambling and ask for equal time?
Chrin has a syudy done that says his plans are wonderful. Wow. The taxpayers are helping Stoffa and Angle in the newest Ron Angle re-election ploy.
Enough of these guys. Why don't they just resign.
Chrin has a study done bc HE is taking the risk, not the taxpayer. If this fails, the taxpayer is no worse off than it is now.
And please tell me where one dime of taxpayer money is going to Chrin. He is paying for everything himself, including the Interchange, which is ordinarily funded by PennDot. He has already invested $10 MM.
If the TOF passes, Chrin will get a deferral on the increase in tax, but the County will continue to get what it has been getting, and more.
Now Angle was able to secure a commitment from Chrin to contribute an amount for farmland preservation that will more or less equal the farmland lost. Nobody but Angle could have done that. I realize this helps his re-election chances, but he did it bc it benefits the taxpayer.
Show us where you see the demand for new suburban commercial real estate.
There is no demand - that's why there is a gigantic vacant industrial park at 33 and Hecktown Rd. The kicker is that this is a much more desirable plot than the one being proposed. The one on Hecktwon Rd already has onramps and off ramps too.
One word: boondoggle.
Geeting's market assumptions completely ignore a rudimentary knowledge of the three most important words in real estate: location, location, location.
Again, the Hecktown Rd park is empty and DIRECTLY on the the 33 and 22 intersection. Location huh?
John how do you explain the other developments in the 33 corridor which have exploded with businesses and jobs? from the new target on up through 248 even. You sound a bit put off and upset, but you aren't correct. The Lehigh Valley is one of the areas that has weathered the real estate crush better than most places...
Those businesses are RETAIL serving the local economy not industrial parks that sit empty for EIGHT years like the one on mentioned previously.
"There is no demand - that's why there is a gigantic vacant industrial park at 33 and Hecktown Rd."
I'm unaware of it, and mentioned this before. There are auto dealers there and Louise Moore Park, but no indstrial park.
"There is no demand - that's why there is a gigantic vacant industrial park at 33 and Hecktown Rd."
The area is packed with auto dealers, which is why I think the industrial park was created.
If the are selected by Chrin fails, it is his loss, not the County's. It will be no worse off than it is now. So why complain?
Car dealers were there before the park. The park is there to get trucks onto 33 and has sat vacant for 8 years.
Why am I complaining? Because people propose those preposterous Open Space plans while raping open space for an industrial park that isn't needed. And somehow the taxpayers get to float the millionaire the cash.
How many of those 3,500 jobs will go to local residents vs how many will be for out of the area or out of state residents?
Its a shame that Palmer and Easton get the majority of the tax revenue while Tatamy and Upper Nazareth (the two municipalities most affected by the development) get all the headaches.
"Car dealers were there before the park. The park is there to get trucks onto 33 and has sat vacant for 8 years."
Ths is inaccurate. Your own link shows a car dealership on one of the lots, and I believe it is now full. Different kind of business, by the way.
"How many of those 3,500 jobs will go to local residents vs how many will be for out of the area or out of state residents?"
Without doubt, the vast majority of those jobs will be local.
"Its a shame that Palmer and Easton get the majority of the tax revenue while Tatamy and Upper Nazareth (the two municipalities most affected by the development) get all the headaches."
Agreed, but that's where the land is located.
Now Geeting is talking about trees that smell like semen, and pontificating about what's wrong with the pear trees in Emmaus.
I'd bet $100 he hasn't talked to any shop owner in town, and $50 he'd have trouble finding Emmaus on a map, yet he knows what's really the issue.
Must be great to be in your 20s and know so much about everything.
Mr Ohare
Please endure my timeline and subsequent question.
Chrins' first offer was to finance and build the entire project with 25 million of his own money.
He then was told by PennDot that the bridge was deficient and would need to be replaced.
The bridge replacement appears to cost 8 to 10 million additional dollars.
My question is why doesn't Chrin provide the original offer of 25 million to build the ramps. Then have the county foot the bill with TIF monies (8 to 10 million) for the bridge replacement.
This project was his proposal, the county is involved due to the extra money, not the initial money. He should honor his original proposal and approach the county for aide for the portion he was not prepared to spend.
I am not opposed to the project however I am opposed to providing more than we need to get the project completed.
It's true that Chrin originally stated he needs no TIF. He has already spent $10 MM from his own pocket and likely will spend at least $25 MM. Don't forget - he is putting in the Interchange, not PennDot. And they decided that the bridge needs to be replaced. Under these circumstances, I can see asking for a TIF. Don't forget, this is NOT a handout in the classical corporate welfare sense. What this does is enable him to use some of the increased tax money to fund the project. All municipalities will continue getting what they get now, plus some percentage of additional tax revenue
Bonds are bonds. The taxpayer is the debtor of last resort. You and the Angle/Stoffa team are selling snake oil on this deal. The $2 million is a sweetener for the deal that is known as pay to play.
This is nothing but a campaign stunt by Angle with Stoffa's help all subsidized by the taxpayer.
Shameful Mr. O'Hare!!
What's shameful is your own ignorance. You obviously don't know much about bonds. These bonds are NOT backed by the full faith and credit of the taxpayer. If there is a default, it will be on the bondholder. That's why the interest rate will be pretty high. Whoever buys has to assume the risk that they will fail.
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