On the agenda for tonight's meeting of Bethlehem Tp Comm'rs is the purchase of six AR-15s (technically, they are Sig Sauers) from Atlantic Tactical for $12,078. In light of what's been going on in recent weeks throughout the country, is a request like this just a tad tone deaf.
On May 25, George Floyd's life was taken away by a
In the meantime, violence continues. On Friday night, an unarmed black man named Rayshard Brooks was fatally shot in the back by a white Atlanta police officer after a confrontation at, of all places, a Wendy's drive-thru. Brooks was running away with a Taser that he might have aimed and even fired at the officer, but Atlanta's Mayor has already determined that's no justification for deadly force. Angry protesters set fire to the Wendy's and even shut down an interstate highway.
Against this backdrop, Bethlehem Tp Comm'rs are considering the purchase of military grade weapons.
Police may need them. In 2017, they were involved in a 10-hour standoff with a man who barricaded himself after shooting and killing his mother. He fired over 100 rounds at police, and one officer was pinned down. The assailant, who eventually killed himself, was armed with a 12-gauge shotgun as well as two Russian assault-style rifles.
In an explanatory memo, Township police say they already have 12 rifles, purchased in 2004. Because they are showing "signs of wear," six AR-15s were purchased last year. These are the final six. The memo fails to indicate what is happening to the rifles being replaced. In an email to Commissioners, Township resident Dennis Brennan urges them to table what certainly appears to be a tone-deaf purchase."Do you really need to make this purchase now?" he asks. "I'm not in any way making any sort of statement that would defund our police department simply asking to table this item as bigger discussions at this time are necessary. If the current rifles are not safe or certified, I could understand but it's not like they are getting used all that often other than target practice. Again, I ask that this agenda item be tabled so the township doesn't on the surface appear to be going the opposite way than many communities across the country, including locally as seen in an article on today's MCall.com. Shouldn't the township be involved in those discussions with our neighboring cities and towns?"
Commissioners should press the pause button.
Updated 10:20 am: Comm'rs Will Revisit AR-15 Purchase Later. - I have received the following email from Township Manager Doug Bruce: "Regarding your blog post today: Please note the Board of Commissioners has decided to pull all purchase orders from tonight’s agenda and revisit them at a later date."
62 comments:
what "signs of wear"?
sig sauers are top of the line, and each one should be able to take thousands of rounds fired before showing wear.
these guys been in combat?
To my eyes, the fatal shooting in Atlanta was clearly NOT unlawful police behavior. Several videos of the entire incident are available. Video taken from the Wendy’s outside security camera show the suspect turning back toward the officer with raised arm with weapon in hand pointed squarely at the nearest officer.
Shortly thereafter, the not-so-peaceful protestors firebombed the Wendy’s franchise and totally destroyed it. The Atlanta Mayor reacted too quickly in determining this was reason to fire the officers involved. They followed what most Americans would see as correct protocols.
So you want a police department, but you wish to limit the size of their guns. That's trying to be half pregnant, and it's a terrible disservice to those you hire and their families who'd dearly like to see them at the end of the shift. Bad guys are not limiting the sizes of their weapons, as fairly detailed in this story.
Perhaps it's time to discuss whether to have police departments at all. Many of our safest communities have no police. How are they able to pull this off with only PSP on-call policing? Perhaps it's time for communities to look at themselves and ask why some are peaceful, while not policed. And why theirs have expensive departments, high crime rates, and citizens who don't feel safe around either their neighbors or their police.
"sig sauers are top of the line, and each one should be able to take thousands of rounds fired before showing wear."
I would not know, but also do not know if the rifles being replaced are sig sauers.
"e. Video taken from the Wendy’s outside security camera show the suspect turning back toward the officer with raised arm with weapon in hand pointed squarely at the nearest officer."
That weapon was the taser he stole from cops, which is not deadly. Moreover, he had been searched by those same cops and they knew he was unarmed. The only thinh he had on him was his wallet. The decision to use deadly force was unreasonable. It's sad because I think the officers tried very hard to do the right thing. It is not easy to be a cop.
"So you want a police department, but you wish to limit the size of their guns. That's trying to be half pregnant, and it's a terrible disservice to those you hire and their families who'd dearly like to see them at the end of the shift. Bad guys are not limiting the sizes of their weapons, as fairly detailed in this story."
I believe the purchase is warranted but the timing is bad.
https://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-nws-lehigh-valley-police-reform-20200613-yktykkq66ra2zmkfougnhlinji-story.html
If they already have some of these guns and perhaps 4 vehicles on shift patrol, don't they have enough already?
So after riots in many of our large cities that have led to the senseless loss of property and innocent life - and rioters promising to start coming to the suburbs - you think it's "tone deaf" for the Township police department to be purchasing AR-15's to be prepared for what might be coming?
Maybe they should just wait until the mayhem and looting starts and then have them air-dropped into the Township?
I would say it's tone deaf and a dereliction of duty if the Commissioners spend more than a minute before approving this.
'Splain to me - How did a Milwaukee police officer kill George Floyd in Minneapolis?
7:14 -
I would say it's more appropriate to look at the number of officers the township has than how many vehicles are on patrol.
If it hits the fan, there will be more officers deployed, and they'll all have a need for such weapons.
The boys want new shinny toys.
The appropriate response is NO.
Bernie O'Hare said: "Against this backdrop, Bethlehem Tp Comm'rs are considering the purchase of military grade weapons."
Can we stop with the dishonest gun-control lingo?
These are not "military grade" weapons. They are functionally different from the M-16 models used by the military. AR-15's do not fire automatically, M-16's do.
While calling an AR-15 a "military-grade weapon" is provocative and might sway the uninformed, I know of no service member who has ever said "Gee, we might have won that battle if only we had been given AR-15's instead of these lousy M-16's."
Look it up. Weapons like that have a 10 year expiration date. Dirt, dust, bouncing around in a car, plus the 1000s of rounds in practice every year. Ill timed, yes. Really overdue, yes.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
A few things here -
I agree with Anon 546am, for a rifle to show "signs of wear" that is not reparable, the rifles must have been misused or not maintained properly. It's not rocket science, they last decades if properly cared for.
The AR-15 is not an "assault rifle." the "AR" stands for ArmaLite Rifle, the manufacturer of the firearm back in the 1950s. It is not an automatic (those have been banned since 1934). I also advocate the banning of bump stocks which can make an AR-15 and countless other rifles close to automatic.
All that said, this timing just stinks and this should be put off. Repair what you have and then maintain it.
"These are not "military grade" weapons. They are functionally different from the M-16 models used by the military. AR-15's do not fire automatically, M-16's do."
You are incorrect.The sig sauer sig516, which is the AR-15 variant being purchased, is an automatic that can fire a three-round burst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_SIG516
"'Splain to me - How did a Milwaukee police officer kill George Floyd in Minneapolis?"
I corrected my error. TY.
Bernie, the video appears to show the fatal shots came from the forward officer’s partner who was attempting to save the officer who was crumpled over a vehicle after the suspect used the taser. First of all, tasers can kill. Secondly, the forward officer was, at the very least, incapacitated and unable to defend himself.
The ongoing narrative that police unnecessarily fire on people is being overplayed. It will lead to police retirements, resignations, transfers to a safer community force, etc. Unfortunately, some police officers will decide to ‘slow roll’ to calls for help, or maybe, just not pursue anyone. All that leads to an even greater problem for certain neighborhoods.
I would never second guess a police officer forced to react to such a situation. Everything was totally courteous and respectful up until the moment the young man lost control of his logic and decided to fight off the officers and steal their weapon. Bad choice for anyone to make regardless of their color, religious beliefs, social status, or anything else used to label and divide people into groups.
My hope is, the officers are exonerated. Then, no doubt, even more rioting by those who can’t understand the importance of law and order in a civilized society.
Off O'Hare. How many encounters have you been in where a suspect was searched and no weapon found, but minutes later suddenly there is a gun or knife? I've never had that with my own search but my partners had and I became involved in one of the incidents. One with a gun. It happens. And if know it all's knew about firearms training they'd know what the long guns go through. They aren't left under the bed or in a closet, shot 2 or 3 times a year. Ask the officer who was pinned down in Bethlehem Township felt during the encounter. If he even cares to discuss it.
"Unarmed" black man in Atlanta?
Bernie O'Hare said:
"You are incorrect. The sig sauer sig516, which is the AR-15 variant being purchased, is an automatic that can fire a three-round burst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_SIG516.
__________________________________________________________________________
Then I think it's misleading to refer to it as an AR-15.
No disrespect to the venerable source of knowledge known as Wikipedia on the Sig Sauer, but even they acknowledge that "The term "AR-15" is now most-commonly used to refer only to the civilian variants of the rifle." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_style_rifle
For the purpose of what Bethlehem Twp is looking to buy, I don't think it matters since they can lawfully purchase automatic weapons. Where I take issue is that some will then (willingly or unwillingly) use the AR-15 term to describe what civilians own, and equate it with what the military and police use.
I stand corrected - the police version of the Sig Sauer is an automatic rifle. This is not available to the general public as automatic weapons were banned by the National Firearms Act of 1934.
The point stands though that the version of the AR15 that is available to the general public is not an assault weapon. It's a rifle, that's it.
" First of all, tasers can kill. Secondly, the forward officer was, at the very least, incapacitated and unable to defend himself."
It is extremely rare for a taser to kill someone. That is why police officers use the,m. If your argument is that they are lethal, then police officers should be banned from using them to subdue people.
The officer who fired and killed had no reasonable basis for believing his life or that of anyone else was in danger. The officer should unfortunately be prosecuted. Let a jury make the call.
"Off O'Hare. How many encounters have you been in where a suspect was searched and no weapon found, but minutes later suddenly there is a gun or knife? "
Officers do not make the call whether one of their own should be prosecuted. And my guess is he will be.
" Everything was totally courteous and respectful up until the moment the young man lost control of his logic and decided to fight off the officers and steal their weapon."
I agree with this completely. The officers were very professional and courteous. I saw no evidence that there was anything inappropriate until the officer fired. I feel very bad for the cop as well as the victim.
Anon 8:35 said:
"...the video appears to show the fatal shots came from the forward officer’s partner who was attempting to save the officer who was crumpled over a vehicle after the suspect used the taser. First of all, tasers can kill. Secondly, the forward officer was, at the very least, incapacitated and unable to defend himself."
Which also means that this officer might not have realized that it was a taser being pointed at him, only that the suspect had something in his hand and turned as if to fire.
If there are lessons to be learned here, it's as follows:
Don't sleep in a drive-thru.
Don't resist arrest.
Don't take ANY weapon from an officer.
Don't flee from police, particularly when holding ANYTHING that looks like a weapon
If you flee from police, don't turn and make a shooting motion, even if there's NOTHING in your hand.
And as a subsequent commenter mentioned, weapons are often missed in initial searches.
While I can understand the outrage at the George Floyd killing, on this one the blame falls on the offender not the officer. I don't expect any cop to wait and see what is shot at him or how accurate an assailant is. The cop has a right to defend himself also.
Blogger Bernie O'Hare said...
"e. Video taken from the Wendy’s outside security camera show the suspect turning back toward the officer with raised arm with weapon in hand pointed squarely at the nearest officer."
That weapon was the taser he stole from cops, which is not deadly. Moreover, he had been searched by those same cops and they knew he was unarmed. The only thinh he had on him was his wallet. The decision to use deadly force was unreasonable. It's sad because I think the officers tried very hard to do the right thing. It is not easy to be a cop.
June 15, 2020 at 7:04 AM
Sorry Pal, he wrestled with police, he grabbed for a gun, he ran and turned and fired at said police, they don't know what he grabbed in the heat of the moment, they see a flash aimed at them from a violent suspect who just fought with them and reached for their weapons
@7:57: innocent lives at the hands of poorly trained officers. Your attitude is one of shoot fellow Americans protesting mostly peaceful first then ask questions? Also, where are you getting that they're coming to the suburbs?
Bethlehem Twp. Has come along way since the days when Officer Leiser would stop at the V-7 at noon ,we kid’s always liked him. Why a —$2,000 rifle? These decisions are typically a matrix of the Existence Principal. Often parallels between golf and marksmanship are drawn. Ask yourself,would you buy a particular firearm of golf club and for what reason or advantage . I see daily on our club range, people with a newly acquired AR platform and they are commonly unaware of proper operation and sighting procedure. The Sig 516 is impressive, and improved example of this platform. But I see a problem with mixing direct impingement firearms with piston driven in the same armory or in the ranks of civilian police . It’s not their fault ,but I have observed issues with others during their training witch equates to operability problem in the field or in a time when crap hits the fan. So- what purpose would it serve for me to buy a Callaway Epic Star Flash Driver for $699.99 if I’m a Bogey Golfer with a handicap of just 20.?
"I think it's misleading to refer to it as an AR-15."
There was nothing misleading about my story. This rifle is commonly referred to as an AR-15 variant. And it is an assault rifle.
"Sorry Pal, he wrestled with police, he grabbed for a gun, he ran and turned and fired at said police, they don't know what he grabbed in the heat of the moment, they see a flash aimed at them from a violent suspect who just fought with them and reached for their weapons"
Don't pull facts out of your ass. Brooks grabbed for and got a taser, which is not deadly. My opinion, based on the actual facts and not your misinformation, is that the officer had no reasonable basis for believing that his life or that of anyone else was in danger.
10:01 -
The person who was shot in Atlanta wasn't peacefully protesting, he had just assaulted a police officer who was called to the scene. He pointed a weapon (that turned out to be another officer's taser) at an officer as he fled.
Bernie O'Hare said:
"Brooks grabbed for and got a taser, which is not deadly. My opinion, based on the actual facts and not your misinformation, is that the officer had no reasonable basis for believing that his life or that of anyone else was in danger."
Which officer shot Brooks? That seems to me to be a very important question here.
If it's the same officer whose Taser was taken, then that officer would at least know that it's not his firearm (since that officer has his weapon to shoot Brooks).
If it's another officer who's pursing and has a suspect turn and make a shooting motion, that's a whole different story.
@7:57AM " So after riots in many of our large cities that have led to the senseless loss of property and innocent life - and rioters promising to start coming to the suburbs - you think it's "tone deaf" for the Township police department to be purchasing AR-15's to be prepared for what might be coming?"
Somebody has been filling your Facebook account with fake news. These "threats" of "ANTIFA coming to invade white suburbs" is pure fiction conjured by morons, for morons with the hope of getting the average FOX News viewer to further wet their already urine soaked Depends undergarments... Sadly it appears to be working on far too many of societies dim wits.
The officer who ended up slumped over the rear of a vehicle just a few yards away from an aggressor is ABSOLUTELY vulnerable to great harm. The subject could have run up and choked the officer, perhaps even had a gun with bullets or a knife tossed his way, etc. You had an officer mostly down, maybe exhausted and weaker. The officer was in a most dangerous position. Besides, how could that officer even be sure the second officer was close enough behind to assist? He was totally fixed on the subject as he pursued.
For those current and past police officers reading, I just want to say you have my greatest admiration and respect. All of society needs you, much more than they care to admit.
That version of the AR-15 is an assault rifle as it has automatic fire capabilities. That version is also not available to the general public.
To ban my AR-15, which is not an auto and therefore is not an assault rifle, because the police can own an AR-15 which is an auto and therefore is an assault rifle doesn't make logical sense.
The only way I can own an assault rifle is illegally already.
"Floyd, who is black, was suffocated by a white man who kneeled on his neck for nearly nine minutes, ignoring cries of "I can't breathe." This brutality of this senseless death sparked outrage among nearly all of us, no matter our race. There have been numerous multi-racial protests, some violent"
All outraged because on our common humanity...
Any story or action that divides humans beings which are all one race, into separate races, which is scientifically false, is by definition, racist, and it serves to perpetuate the idea of multi-racial humans.
It's the false narrative of identity politics, the purpose among other prejudicial reasons is to create a voting block based on a false "racial identity". It's a religion to some, scientific heresy to others, but mostly a political tool of Divide and Conquer politics, we we're all together until it was deployed.
Bernie, for the most part these ass backward wanna be cowboys just all want to ride around with a ar. Listen to the lehigh parkway cop range at times, sounds as if there not even taking aim just unloading there guns?
“The science of genetics demonstrates that humans cannot be divided into biologically distinct subcategories”; and it “challenges the traditional concept of different races of humans as biologically separate and distinct. This is validated by many decades of research.” In other words, “race itself is a social construct,” with no biological basis."
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-concept-of-race-is-a-lie/
Crime does not pay.
I googled that rifle model, did anyone else notice that model has been discontinued? Who's making the decisions in Bethlehem TWP?
"Crime does not pay."
That includes criminal homicide.
9.25
"If there are lessons to be learned here, it's as follows:"
How about backing up the horse?
They knew the guys name they had his address and his car, his running accomplished nothing as the cops would catch up with him the next day for example
So using deadly force was not needed or warranted.
Right, he wasn't going anywhere anyway. He was from out of town, and police had his rental. When he sobered up the nest day, he could be charged with resisting and fleeing. He was staying at a hotel near by, and police could have found out exactly where pretty quickly.
Anon 3:51 , firearms purchases should not be done with politics. The firearm in view is the best of the best,for this purpose. I Problem is like a great fighter plane , you need people up to speed to be able to use its capabilities. Three round burst seer not a good idea for civilian population,too costly and a waist of assets ,in my opinion. . Marksmanship is the key to control. Consider this , had that character in Bethlehem Twp .That shot at police and his mother had a counter shooter , Evan in low light he wouldn’t have been suicidal , the ordeal would have been over early. He would have stuck his head up as he did. Marksmanship is the key to control , and standoff distance is your friend. The rifle here ,in the hands of a “rifleman “ could easily take a man out with no scope at 500 meters.
Regardless of the current climate, I fail to see the need for assault rifles in Bethlehem Township. Fortunately, crime is minimal.
4:11 and 4:46. Why have cops carry cuffs? Just think. Never another DUI arrest. Just run. No shoplifting arrest. Run. No.... Take your blood with you so it can't be tested. Take your stolen item with you so it can't be identified, ..... But then, only a mailable summons for resisting. Heck with a warrant. Subject may run. If they turn themselves in, they turn themselves in.
Boy. This comment sounds stupid. I can't believe I typed it.
Let's talk about this case, not some made up situation that is totally inapposite to the point being made. What you fail to grasp is that the assault, resisting and fleeing charges would be far more serious than a simple DUI. The DUI is a mailable summons. The assault, resisting and flight are arrestable offenses. So if the guy runs, let him run. You have his frickin' car. You have his license. You even have a good idea where he is staying, something that Brooks himself seemed confused about. I believe a veteran police officer probably would have done just what I said. And based on the video, there was certainly enough evidence to still charge him with DUI. Yeah, your comment is stupid. It is the kind of stupid that gets people killed.
This is why Donald J, Trump will win re-election. Nutty Dems can't control themselves. You had him on the ropes but as usual you went nutty.
Defund police, let thugs rule. Fight cops and try and kill them{tazzes are considered ;less lethal not non-lethal). Burn shit down.
Yeah, America loves that. Thank you for ensuring four more years.
Trump 2020.
"Kansas officers shoot, kill man who pointed gun after chase" (Monday 6-15-2020)
I'll bet there are no riots!!! But why wasn't he allowed to go to his sisters? If he had one.
"Black Lives Matter protester Oluwatoyin Salau", dead.
No protests. No Al, No Jesse, BLACK LIVE MATTER......
examples of different treatment
https://www.denverpost.com/2020/02/06/aurora-police-drunk-dui-investigation/
https://www.wtxl.com/news/drunk-tallahassee-man-caught-walking-through-neighborhood-with-loaded-rifle/article_0482a512-ffd2-11e8-a1b0-0b87c875dea4.html
https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/opinion/times/story/2020/jun/10/sohn-about-two-men-guns-and-protests-about-ra/525033/
https://wjon.com/sauk-rapids-man-pleads-guilty-in-drunken-assault-and-standoff/
"Officers later located Kent on the front steps of a house and heard him make comments similar to "come and get me" before going inside. Records show Kent then came back out of in a shooting stance while pointing what looked like a gun toward officers.
Deputies called in the SWAT team to enter the home and arrest Kent. Police say they found him in the bathtub with a smashed air pistol also in the home.
Even more stupid would be allowing the suspect to flee without police taking back control of the offensive weapon. Within minutes, a temporarily deranged ‘fugitive’ could use that same police-issued weapon to harm someone later during his escape.
There’s a reason why our police make great efforts to find whatever a subject throws into the bushes or weeds as he flees. It’s because what was used could be found by another person, or child. Could be a loaded gun, a knife, a dangerous bag of drugs, etc.
What happened to days gone by, when the police officer, locked your car and drove you home after insuring that you had no warrants. Lesson learned by driver about driving while under the influence.
6.40, remember MADD mothers against drunk driving, they stopped a cavalier attitude about drunk driving. rightfully so.
Fact, resisting arrest is a very bad choice, it will for sure result in someone getting hurt, It will for sure add to the charges and penalties.
I wonder if big city politicians allowing petty offences to be not prosecuted, has convinced some that they no longer should be arrested for anything.
Police should not be required to wrestle with anyone. he is being put in danger. Physically and possibly health wise. Also you cannot just let people go, what if this person proceeded to drive after being let go, and killed someone, the cop would be fired and the city sued.
Maybe it should be put out, that if you resist arrest you will be shot. Likely there will be a lot less resisting arrest.
If you let it be known that if you resist arrest, you will be let go, you will have a lot more resisting arrest.
5:45 Thank a lawyer !
I can’t agree with any new standard of conduct that includes
‘ Should you find yourself in a physical struggle with police after refusing to obey their instructions, then manage to take their weapon and run away . . . . Don’t worry about it! You can always give back the weapon later.’
Ridiculous.
No one has suggested that, and you are distorting what I said, as usual. Police had his car and his license and the guy was drunk. He wasn't going to run far. There was no need to escalate or shoot this guy in the back. I do think the officers were very professional and courteous with Brooks up until the point they shot him in the back. I would have let him go until he collapsed bc he was in no condition to run a marathon. He was not going to be driving any more. Police already had all the evidence they needed for multiple charges. If concerned about getting the usual nonlethal taser back, they could have followed at a slow pace. He wasn't going anywhere. A veteran cop would have handled this much differently.
Let me describe an entirely different time in the 50's. The late father-in-law after a night of drinking arrived home. Put his key in the lock. Opened the door when a cop walked up behind him on the porch. The father-in-law turned around and asked what he wanted. The cop said I was following behind your car and it looked like you were driving stupid. The cop said I just wanted to make sure you got home safely, that no one got hurt and you're going to stay home for the rest of the night. No harm no foul. Imagine caught driving that way today.
My own experience with drinking too much...
I was at the old Bill Daniels out on Hamilton street by Cedar Crest years ago when I indulged in a tad too much of the adult beverages. Some guy walked right into me. I turned to his right and he did it again. I said excuse me! Then turned to my left and he did it a third time. I looked right into his eyes and was about to ask him what the hell his problem was when I realized it was me in a mirror. Then on other hand my brother held the record there for nursing only one $2 beer for over 3 hours.
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