A few weeks ago, I was speaking to a friend who told me she voted by MIB and dropped off her ballot at the courthouse. When I asked her why she did not stop and say Hi, she told me she gave her ballot to her next door neighbor because he was taking his and his wife's ballot to the courthouse. When I told her that's illegal, she was stunned.
Just a few days ago, I saw a post by a Facebook friend who was delighted to report that her husband had just taken his and her ballot to the courthouse to drop them off. When I told her that was illegal, I was met with stony silence. No Likes. I've probably been unfriended and blocked.
Now NorCo Republicans are snapping pictures and raising a stink when some citizen is dropping off the ballot for himself and one or two family members.
This situation is similar to what happens during in-person voting. One spouse will sometimes drag the other behind the curtain to help explain the ballot. Technically, you are supposed to have them both sign about 18,000 forms. But as things get busy, poll workers like myself sometimes forget. In fact, sometimes it happens so fast it takes me unaware. Is this fraud? Of course not. Should a vote be invalidated because some husband dragged his wife behind the curtain to do who knows what? Of course not.
It's an innocent mistake, no different than a husband whose wife's ballot is on his "Honeydo" list. He has no idea that he just committed a capital offense.
Lee Snover is rolling around on the floor, foaming at the mouth. But as Joe Biden might say, "Come on, man!"
This is what I call "harmless error." What's really bugging people like Snover and GOP State House candidate Scott Hough (my brother has his sign in his front yard) is they both know they are losing.
54 comments:
You are a hypocrite. You attack many people especially your favorite hate targets about the law all the time. You claim what they say or do is illegal this or illegal that. No room for any excuse. You then overlook the law when it is to your benefit.
Ms. Snover has given the media proof of ballot harvesting. Your boy McClure quick got his mug on Tv to say it is all a political stunt and not real. I guess he made you do this little story.
It is illegal to put other peoples ballots in the box. What are thy hiding? Why the excises? The courts may have to step in and oversee the county operation.
Ok Republicans. TIME FOR LITTLE INNOCENT MISTAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, the controversy has made the issue of ballot dropping rules clear. Right on. Now it may make people more confident and also raise awareness of possible misdeeds. Snover raised a legitimate issue. Many counties allow monitoring of boxes, that relieves any doubt about the security of the vote.
Actually from what I hear, the frothing and rolling around was done my democrat election officials who didn't want their process questioned or exposed.
Spirit of the law vs. letter of the law. Most reasonable people understand this. Some people are not reasonable.
Wow, Bernie, a sworn election official is declaring the law doesn’t need to be followed, and it is his decree that we should just look the other way at some of these things, at least, the things HE says are “ok”.
I also like how he uses gender bias, by saying husbands drag their wives to the voters booth, like it’s some cave man society.
Great “journalism” Bernie. Keep us moving forward!
Whether or not you believe voter fraud is a problem, and I am expecting massive voter fraud this election, just ask yourself which major political party is most likely to stoop so low to get a “win.”
"Ms. Snover has given the media proof of ballot harvesting. Your boy McClure quick got his mug on Tv to say it is all a political stunt and not real. I guess he made you do this little story."
That's my point. There is no ballot harvesting. A husband will drop off his and his wife's ballot or the other way around. No, it should not happen, but I would not crucify them. If Snover's snoops had photos of the same person repeatedly returning, then she'd have a point.
Yes, it is illegal, but it is not fraud.
I don't know what McClure said on TV bc I do not watch TV. I did read what he told one of the news outlets and I believe he reminded everyone to bring in their own ballot.
Really, the law should be relaxed so that one member of a household can bring in the ballots for everyone at that household. A strict reading of the law means that a husband cannot even deposit his own wife's ballot in his mailbox for pickup. That's silly.
I agree ballot harvesting is always a concern and this is the only thing that bothers me concerning MIBs. I heard stories in the primary and related them here, but this is not ballot harvesting.
"Wow, Bernie, a sworn election official is declaring the law doesn’t need to be followed, and it is his decree that we should just look the other way at some of these things, at least, the things HE says are “ok”.
I also like how he uses gender bias, by saying husbands drag their wives to the voters booth, like it’s some cave man society."
That's a pretty big misinterpretation of what I said. The law should be followed. But many people do not know they can only bring their own ballots. A husband who unknowingly brings in his wife's ballot is not committing voter fraud. It's not even a crime because he is acting innocently, without mens rea.
The people I know who did it had no idea they were unable to bring in a vote for a family member or friend. Should these people be prosecuted and have their votes invalidated? Don't be silly.
As I said in my story, I see husbands call for their wives and vice versa while one or the other is in the act of voting. They do not know they need to fill out all kinds of forms and it happens pretty fast. Am I supposed to yank them out of the booth and call for them to be arrested? No. You try to have them fill out forms if you can, but that is not voter fraud.
I am happy to see people engaged and voting. Lee Snover would impose a poll tax if she could.
Republicans are trying to set the narrative again, I bet you Lee Snover took her family to the poles in the same car and TOLD them how to vote, OMG the tragedy
I just asked myself that very question. The answer was loud and clear:Republicans! Thanks for the confirmation suggestion, Anonymous 8:22!
"Really, the law should be relaxed so that one member of a household can bring in the ballots for everyone at that household. A strict reading of the law means that a husband cannot even deposit his own wife's ballot in his mailbox for pickup. That's silly."
Such misogyny Bernie. Can a wife not bring her husbands ballot? Although how does a MIB know if the wife filled out her husband's ballot for them, without her knowing?
Its all so innocent, right? Abusive spouses don't do this, right? Just let spouses deliver ballots, because there's nothing bad that can happen and Bernie say's so, damn the law.
Any tips on where I might collect the most ballots? I haven't done it before. But since the rules are gone, I'm thinking of wetting my beak.
We must have very different definitions of "Massive"...
A spouse depositing 2 ballots, even multiplied by 100's is not an indication of criminal or fraudulent action. A individual depositing a sack of ballots? Yeah that's sketchy. An individual returning to the drop box multiple times? Sketchy.
Again - MIBs are verified so the dead or non-county voters can be quickly spotted and removed and can't be duplicated where you send in a MIB, then go vote at the polls for a double dip.
The crying and pants wetting about fraud and stuffing the ballot box is a proven HOAX. It cannot be done on any significant scale that would impact an election. The cost in time, money and levels of conspiracy to keep it hidden is impossible.
Ignorantia juris non excusat. You want to the ability to do these things then play by the rules. This is the problem with people who scream and demand these things. Once granted you better do your homework and understand how it works. If you don't understand or ask questions and your ballot gets rejected then that is on you, you're the VOTER.
My wife mailed my ballot for me. Catch us if you can!
@9:47
"The cost in time, money and levels of conspiracy to keep it hidden is impossible."
However, the national media is saying the conspiracy against Hunter Biden, developing witnesses, creating a laptop, originating emails and text messages over years, money transfers and international bank accounts and business board membership and multitudes of other evidence is a HOAX. Enough time, money and levels of conspiracy to do that, huh?
You don't think either party is incapable of this when it comes to keeping power over the people?
"Ignorantia juris non excusat. You want to the ability to do these things then play by the rules. This is the problem with people who scream and demand these things. Once granted you better do your homework and understand how it works. If you don't understand or ask questions and your ballot gets rejected then that is on you, you're the VOTER."
Since you want to throw around Latin phrases to sound important, let me give you two others: malum in se" and "malum prohibitum."
In the case of someone who drops off his wife's or husband's ballot, we are taking about conduct that is malum prohibitum, i.e. it is wrong because it is prohibited. That is distinguishable from conduct that is malum in se, i.e. wrong or evil in itself. We all know that if you alter a ballot or pay someone for his vote or create a false identity so you can vote twice, that is malum in se. There is criminal intent or a mens rea. But if someone innocently drops off another's ballot with no knowledge of the law, there is no mens rea and no crime. Malum prohibitum applies to summary offenses like illegal parking, which are not really considered crimes.
So ignorance of the law is an excuse.
@BO 10:54 - These sore losers are just picking nits and splitting hairs in order to mentally justify the epic ass kicking Republicans are about to take on Tuesday. They simply cannot believe that the FOX News Fairytales of the past 4 years are untrue and are shocked and appalled that large swathes of voters do not love their Cheeto Jesus as much as they do.
9:47 - I have no problem at all with one spouse depositing a vote on behalf of another spouse. I read somewhere the practice is usually overlooked for up 3 ballots total. I’m fine with that, too.
The massive fraud I refer to will be found within the process of determining if a vote is legitimate, or not. That will require humans to validate according to voter roll books. A huge number a voter roll books across America are out-of-date, even dirty. Someone will be sitting down and deciding which vote gets placed in which stack, one stack for approved, a second stack for rejected. We do NOT have the ability under current practices to guarantee the purity of the massive number of votes to be cast outside of voting machines at each poll location.
The old saying, “It’s not the votes that count, it’s who counts the votes.” Too true this time, I fear.
10:49, it is clear to me that this was intended as the October surprise to bring down Biden. While the details concerning Hunter are disturbing and make him sound like one of Trump’s children, there has been no direct connection to Biden himself. Perhaps this should be getting more scrutiny and I am sure it will, but not till AFTER the election.
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse in this manner considering it's on the instructions of the ballot itself and clearly these individuals failed to read it. And its been plugged everywhere to return only your ballot.
The MIB box I went to was staffed and I watched as the citizen ahead of me inserted two, one after the other, after asking the box watcher himself if it was okay. This rule is like a lot of rules that are made in a conference room without further thought about enforcement during the actual scenario. Shooting grass clippings onto the road with the lawn mower, driving onto the stripped shoulder to keep traffic flowing and even the big-stress-of-the-day one of wearing a COVID face mask are more. Follow-the-book people stress over compliance and can feel like suckers. Others just do whatever serves them and can actually exact harm to others. I don't have the answer, but IMO, these opposing approaches are non-partisan.
@10:49 - *IF* the Hunter Biden story is true, how does that have anything to do with voting and changing the results of the election?
You cannot really be that naïve to believe that a story where a family member receiving financial benefits due to a politician holding office really should move the needle in America? I mean its gross and disappointing for sure, but if there is anything more bipartisan in this country its that Republicans and Democrats alike swim in a trough of cash and that their spouses and children are almost ALWAYS given cushy well paying no-show gigs to run a charity or PAC. This has all the impact of breathlessly announcing that Pro Wrestling is fake.
Add in the fact that it spins out of Ukraine, the reason why Trump was impeached and that its on Russia's doorstep waters the entire story down.
"The MIB box I went to was staffed and I watched as the citizen ahead of me inserted two, one after the other, after asking the box watcher himself if it was okay. This rule is like a lot of rules that are made in a conference room without further thought about enforcement during the actual scenario."
They are not staffed in NorCo, so you must have voted elsewhere.
An innocent mistake is one where no one is harmed.
There is no one in the country who is not harmed by a system that would allow for such mistakes to occur, however they may be characterize by partisans.
Voting for other people is not a mistake, it's a crime.
What has been described here is a crime even if they are Trump voters.
Until we know the vote is that of the registered person voting, that vote should not be counted.
If I attempt to register my wife's vote at the polls, will that be consider a mistakes and allowed to stand? I think not.
The 19th Amendment, Women's Suffrage, was not written and ratified so married men could vote twice.
@BOH 11:29
Wouldn't it be great, if the American voters voting against Trump, voted in a guy who was actually guilty of the same crimes the media made them believe Trump was guilty of? Wouldn't it be great for America if the Senate and House both were controlled by the Democrats and the guilt was swept under the rug, and the Biden's got off 'scot-free'?
Long live the Democratic Party!
"An innocent mistake is one where no one is harmed.
There is no one in the country who is not harmed by a system that would allow for such mistakes to occur, however they may be characterize by partisans.
Voting for other people is not a mistake, it's a crime."
This is what you fail to grasp. They are not voting for other people. They are merely dropping off the ballots of family members who have already voted. No one is harmed. Come up for air already.
Bern, your 1:24 comment is on point. My mother’s ballot would have been deposited whether I had taken it for her or not. She cast the vote, not me. Trump has said the only way he’ll lose is if the election is stolen from him. His supporters heard that and are looking for anything, even the tiniest little thing, to support him on that. I would shut this thread down if I was you; it’s going nowhere.
We should be making it easier for people to vote, not harder.
@1:17 - you literally just described most of what happened over the past 4 years. Turnabout is fair play.
This "under the thumb supported politics" is one way to ensure husbands an wives have unified votes...just get rid of that protective curtain.
It's not just that they dropped off votes so they could then be counted, but the folks who may disagree and "mistakenly" forget to drop off an apposing vote.
"Anonymous said...
My wife mailed my ballot for me. Catch us if you can!
October 30, 2020 at 10:27 AM"
^ This couple voted for the same person or the jokes on him.
Innocent mistake. Mostly peaceful protests. The first thing corrupted is the language.
"They are merely dropping off the ballots of family members"
Or they are simply not...dropping off an opposing vote.
To recognized this as a problem to be corrected instead of a innocent mistake to be overlooked, is the key to legitimizing mail-in-voting, or in this instance, drop-off-voting.
*takes in a big breath for one more try*
Now that Mail-in-Voting has morphed into Drop-Off-Voting.... out Mary Matalin and James Carville who drops off the Drop-off-Voting ballots?
I more worried about the counting of the ballots. How easy would it be to dismiss a vote for Trump by claiming it wasn’t in the small envelope
To compare Hunter Biden to one of trumps children is absurd and disgusting, there is no comparison between the two, a perfect example of partisan hate.
"To compare Hunter Biden to one of trumps children is absurd and disgusting, there is no comparison between the two, "
True. Trump's children are far worse.
Kids don't do homework and get to school late and it doesn't count against their grade. Everyone gets trophies. And anyone can drop off anyone's ballot despite the law. This is what's wrong with this country. And we are growing a new generation who doesn't believe they have to follow any rules. It's all about what's convenient. I personally don't care if they change to letting one member of a family drop them off. But I do care when we just see a world to lazy to do anything that inconveniences them. Take some pride in your vote and dear lord drop it off !! Is that to much to ask?
My wife mailed my ballot for me. Catch us if you can!
October 30, 2020 at 10:27 AM"
^ This couple voted for the same person or the jokes on him.
October 30, 2020 at 2:13 PM
Oh, I'm quite sure we both voted a straight D ticket. I quite gave up on Rs many years ago, and she tells me many times a day how much she now agrees. Trump never fooled either of us, not even a little.
"I more worried about the counting of the ballots. How easy would it be to dismiss a vote for Trump by claiming it wasn’t in the small envelope"
It's not just easy. It MUST be discounted. The Pa Supreme Court ruled that naked ballots must be rejected. This, incidentally, is at the request of the Republican Party.,
"Innocent mistake. Mostly peaceful protests. The first thing corrupted is the language."
This is no corruption of language. There are innocent mistakes, and there certainly are peaceful protests. This is why the English language has adjectives.
Hunter Biden connections to the Chinese Communist Party with payoffs is flat out open with facts. Joe Biden doesn’t own 5 estate houses in his senate salary & witnesses connect Joe to Hunter money laundering. Joe is not Mr. Innocent!! His $1 billion extortion of Ukraine authorities to fire investigator into Buerisma is documented with Joe bragging about it!!
Patriot2, Joe Biden's tax returns are available for inspection and show no foreign money. His wealth, most of it gained AFTER leaving office, comes primarily from speaking fees and real estate. I agree Hunter Biden is a shitbird playing on his father's name to enrich himself. Just like Trump's kids and son-in-law, except in their case, they actually have received foreign $. The material offered contains no evidence that Joe Biden himself participated in or benefited from any of this influence peddling. YUour claim is sheer nonsense. Here's a link to an NBC News account: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/here-s-what-happened-when-nbc-news-tried-report-alleged-n1245533
Agreed they should be discounted. However, I am more concerned with ballots being valid and the counters deliberately saying they weren’t. This is my concern for corruption.
In other words, you buy into Trump's corruption nonsense. Your concern is ridiculous. Both parties will have watchers present as the votes are canvassed. They can challenge anything they think improper. They can be there as soon as the envelopes are opened. Please stop creating these goofy conspiracy stories when it's clear you've no understanding of tyhe process. It's totally ignorant.
As a former elected Judge of elections in Northampton county for ten years,during the Bush v. Gore years, I can tell you from personal experience that while not impossible, it is not within the realm of probability to skew an election. Some, but not all roadblocks, are signature comparison, verifying registration address of the qualified elector, and if are they are in fact a qualified elector, to name a few. These are checked and double checked and sometimes triple checked for each and every elector. How does anyone, who refuses to serve on an election board, or any other way contribute or engage in the electoral process as poll workers etc., possess the right to criticize the honesty and integrity of election board members is beyond reasonable comprehension? They manifest their ignorance of the process without any real knowledge,and/or real experience of how the process actually works; manifested by the ludicrous and ridiculous questions they pose to this site. Those of us who have served on an election board, are familiar with the Election laws in Title 25 of the Pennsylvania code. The Judge of Elections uses their discretion and a lot of common sense to make sure that every qualified elector D or R has the opportunity to cast their ballot. Yes, some mistakes can slip by because most of us are in our 60's but if you did not have us you may find yourself traveling to Bangor from South Bethlehem to vote or from Hellertown to Fountain Hill. But Bernie got it right. It is not intentional ergo no crime. All of the Judges I have ever interacted with believe and practice; Justicia Omnibus, justice for all. It is the people you elect who are defined "Corruptio optimi pessimi";The corruption of the best is the worst; not the election board members. I suggest you either volunteer to show up and man a poll and personally experience a 14 hour day and the trials and tribulations that Bernie and I and other of your neighbors have; or keep your ignorant ridiculous opinions to yourself.
Well said, Karl. On election day, my job is to make sure that everyone who wants to vote is able to do so, even if only provisionally. I do not care what party. In a presidential, I usually insist that voters leave as soon as they vote unless waiting for a spouse. This is bc I've learned that inevitably, some will start talking politics. Also, it gets too crowded.
Karl and Bernie - I’ll accept your words that all is pure in Northampton County. That’s not the fear in citizens. My fear comes from actual crimes and successful lawsuits against cheats in the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh regions. Not to mention places like Broward County, Florida and Detroit, Michigan. Minnesota is also of concern.
It is undeniable, this nation has lost many important standards of good conduct and fair play. The election for President is more likely than ever to be stolen in a few key states, and a that could be enough to cause a serious crisis in democracy.
Based on actual video evidence of support on the ground all across America, I would find it quite shocking to see the Biden/Harris collective win either the popular or electoral count. Such a result would baffle the mind.
Bernie
Something needs to be done in Harrisburg regarding ballot drop-off. Have officials even considered the terminally-ill loved one whose spouse wishes to drop off one last vote!
Folks speak of voter suppression. The ballot box has become a brick wall!
"signature comparison"... Comical. Thanks for the tirade.
"They manifest their ignorance of the process without any real knowledge,and/or real experience of how the process actually works; manifested by the ludicrous and ridiculous questions they pose to this site."
Maybe Karl can explain in what way are these people he speaks of informed enough to decide on the direction of public policy by voting in the first? His description of the electorate delegitimizes the entire concept of mass made-easy voting.
Silly questions, like, "Why are they called Mail-in-Ballots when they are not mailed in?"
These can be avoided by letting Karl and Bernie with their vast knowledge of the ever changing electoral linguistics and procedures pick for the ignorant and bewildered masses.
I appreciate Karl's honesty, and believe it should not be made easier for such a bewildered herd to vote.
It should be no surprise when such ever changing processes and procedures making it easier for the uninformed to vote, leads to what looks more like voting on American Idol, ending with a political version of Sanjaya Malakar as president.
8:28AM
Brings up an interesting question, or maybe it's rather "ludicrous and ridiculous" given the "checked and double checked and sometimes triple checked" nature of elections Karl mentioned.
Here goes...
If Ruth Bader Ginsberg voted early, or those who vote early generally, but have died before election day, will their dead vote count?
Does early voting allow the dead to vote? What say you Karl?
Instead of anonymously demanding answers from Karl Fluck, get your head out of your ass and do some research. The Election Code specifically addresses this: "Whenever it shall appear by due proof that any absentee elector who has returned his ballot in accordance with the provisions of this act has died prior to the opening of the polls on the day of the primary or election, the ballot of such deceased elector shall be rejected by the canvassers but the counting of the ballot of an elector thus deceased shall not of itself invalidate any nomination or election."
https://codes.findlaw.com/pa/title-25-ps-elections-electoral-districts/pa-st-sect-25-3146-8.html
"Absentee ballots shall be canvassed immediately and continuously without interruption until completed "after" the close of the polls on the day of the election in each election district."
Counting Mail-in-Ballots starts when polls open just like In-Person Voting? Why is a Mail-in-Ballot not equivalent to an Absentee ballot and subjected to the same law you quoted to explain a deceased elector?
It is, in what has supplanted the statute you cite, i.e. Acts 77 and 12. Do some research. Absentee ballots and MIBs are pretty much the same thing. They are no longer sent to each district but are kept in the main office. I've written about this numerous times and you choose to cite a law that has since been revised. Geez.
Post a Comment