I read several referals by the judge that stated that the objectors failed to establish items for the record. you very well may be right in your assertion that the matter should be tossed, but you and ron did sloppy lawyering.
you failed to meet the burden of proof on a number of matters and also didn't establish a clear record on other matters. you probably couldn't even get an appeal to stick on those front issues. sorry, but the whole thing will have to balance on whether or not this is a valid referendum under the county charter. on that front, we shall see. b/c the county will have a lawyer versed on these matter present, we have to assume the record will be well established.
There still won't be enough signatures, will there be? The judge's number starts at 23,000, but the registrar's office starts at 20,000. Also, Baratta's a lefty from central casting who had his mind made up to throw you a bone, but ultimately protect the unions. He went lightly on the fraud passers and often goes lightly on criminals before him. He's spineless, but consistently spineless.
There still won't be enough signatures, will there be? The judge's number starts at 23,000, but the registrar's office starts at 20,000. Also, Baratta's a lefty from central casting who had his mind made up to throw you a bone, but ultimately protect the unions. He went lightly on the fraud passers and often goes lightly on criminals before him. He's spineless, but consistently spineless.
Would you care to ID yourself and make your assertions to the juducial review panel I'sure your false statements will get you a well deserved rest up the river.
Accusations by the baggers, Baratta is a respected judge and an excellent lawyer. Too bad you rested your case on a non-lawyer.
Baratta used real law, not the Angle and O'Hare law from Bizarro World.
Fact is now we will see if old "two-face" Stoffa will live up to his promise of last year to let this go to a vote if the court approves.
Fact is he doesn't have to challenge this; he wants to challenge this. This is not some massive Home Rule Charter constitutional crises. This is a plan between Angle and Stoffa that is de-railing and they are scrambling to cover their butts.
Thank God for America. Democracy reigns even when it is not bagger democracy, the only good kind according to some.
Bring on the vote. The majority that gave you the majority doesn't want the black hole and it's breathtaking tax increase.
Yes the tens of tens of you will show us LOL
You should know by now Bernie and Angle have led you by your 1980's nose ring and there will be no massive tax increase the true numbers will be brought out now that the curtain has been drawn back exposing the Not So Wonderful Wizard of Schmooze
I am a strong supporter of the Gracedale sale, but this seems like a perfectly reasonable judgement. BO, you failed to meet your burden of proof. You can exagerate circumstances on this blog,but not in a court of law. You and the Hornet laid a big fat goose egg.
"I believe I put on a very good case. The Judge went our of his way to rule against us. I'll be discussing this later."
I certainly hope the judge didn't rule against you because of Union affiliations.
Although the fact that you say he "went out of his way" is somewhat interesting, and I look forward to your take on the matter. The question is are you willing to cross that line when it comes to a judge?
I believe the judge was predisposed to rule against us bc the Election Code imposes the burden on us and is to be construed to support the right to vote. So whenever he could conclude something either for us or against us, it was consistently against us. He neglected the equally important obligation to preserve the integrity of the election process.
But my disagreement is on the law, nothing else. I am casting no stones at his integrity, nor am I suggesting he threw this case for the unions. I believe he called it as he saw it, and I respect that.
I have been highly critical of Judge Baratta on this blog and in fact opposed his retention. I know it annoyed him bc I've been told that by people who know him. But I never asked him to recuse himself bc I thought he would be fair. He heard the case and has ruled against us. I completely disagree with his opinion and do not think it will withstand appellate scrutiny, but I believe Judge Baratta handled this matter fairly and called it as he saw it. I can't ask for more than that.
I have no complaints, except for the judge's reasonong, and I agree with about 60% of that.
Not every tax payer is willing to vote to save Gracedale.
I for one will not vote if it goes to ballot to save it and have my taxes raised substantially next year.
We need to get out of the nursing home business, we have no need to be in it. The residents will be better cared for by a private run facility who can make proper updates to not only the structure of the facility but the care the residents receive.
Despite what the union will tell you the reality is that no residents will be put to the curb and kicked out. Heck even most of the employees will still continue to work and earn a living.
So who loses here really? The Union and AFSCME!!
Again, lets get those employees and the cost of Gracedale off of our tax rolls.
We need to get out of the nursing home business, we have no need to be in it. The residents will be better cared for by a private run facility who can make proper updates to not only the structure of the facility but the care the residents receive.
Despite what the union will tell you the reality is that no residents will be put to the curb and kicked out. Heck even most of the employees will still continue to work and earn a living.
I read several referals by the judge that stated that the objectors failed to establish items for the record. you very well may be right in your assertion that the matter should be tossed, but you and ron did sloppy lawyering.
Did you ever stop to think Maybe that is why he isn't a lawyer
Raising taxes is just a scare tactic being used to sway citizens in the County. I don't see why we would have to raise taxes if the report of a $60 million dollar surplus is true. If they would raise taxes it would be to cover the $20 million dollar bond fiasco' or as a payback for Citizens who had the passion to challenge them. People in this Country and County need to wake up....if I have learned anything it is Government doesn't work for the people today...it works for it's special interest. I find in saddening that some people wouldn't be ok with paying a $100 more a year in taxes to care for the elderly and disabled in need. I donate atleast that if not more to charites yearly and aren't our own Residents worth that. Gracedale is more than a Nursing Facility. It has always been a part of our Community, a home and last resting place for many. A society judges is people on how it treats it's children and elderly. To some this is a game...a point to be made and to others this is a testament of our priorities and humaneness. I for one don't want to turn my back on those I was taught to respect and have compassion for, The Elderly and less fortunate.
The judge is very union-friendly and has some weird interpretations of law. You caught a bad draw. It was bound to happen in NorCo. It was easier to change council. It'll take longer to purge the bench. But it'll happen.
>the objectors failed to establish items for the record
>Maybe that is why he isn't a lawyer
By jove! I think you're onto something! Bernie, you're just a genuine flunkie.
Let's consider that the county had to jump through a few sizeable hoops to acquire staff working overtime (I think) and data processing muscle to wade through all of this stuff.
Bernie did not have anywhere near that kind of manpower or level of IT resources. I don't even think Ron helped him in his investigative endeavors.
Did you also notice that this blog continued to go to press business-as-usual each day while this was going on? The posts here don't write themselves, ya know...
Quite an effort for any one man to undertake. I applaud the effort regardless of the outcome.
If the initiative is passed and Gracedale kept, the county can declare bankruptcy as a precursor to extracting itself from union pension requirements. It's perfectly legal and fiscally sound.
If I take a position, I have to be prepared to take the hit if things don't go as I think they should. Except for some struggling with my first witness, which was largely my own fault, I do think I put on a good case. I do think the judge erred. And the Registrar did testify that the signatures to which I was objecting did NOT overlap with her own rejections. He may not remember that, but I do. I and several others corrected him when he suggested, towards the end of the hearing, that we had not established that.
Well Bernie you will always have the new age flat earthers behind you. I swear some of you folks must have come from another planet or been put through some brainwashing experiment.
Here a conspiracy there a conspiracy. Baratta did his job and he is a better "judge" of the law than Bernie O'Hare and Ron Angle. The law is what a judge says it is, ask any real lawyer.
Cry, piss and moan, it is what it is. The third leg of Northampton County's Unholy Triumvirate, John Stoffa will try his luck on Friday.
I am sure if that fails, he and Angle will have some other devious scheme up there sleeve.
By the way County Council could vote to put a question on the ballot to gauge public support.
Point of relevant information. The so-called $22 million dollar swaption deal is not at $11 million and dropping like a rock. Within a year some "real" financial guys have said it can probably be bought out at 6 to 7 million on the 'high' end. The Administration 2011 cost of Gracedale was pegged at $6 million, that is no longer six million. Due to the pension fund rebound and over estimated costs written into the budget, the true yearly operational costs are now pegged at about $4 million tops. Stoffa already put $3 million aside for an anticipated six months.
In reality for about one million to one and half million tops the place can be run for all of 2011.
This has never been about costs or patient care. This is about a political discussion by Angle and Stoffa and the deal they did to get Stoffa in office and the Angle puppets on Council.
You may find that there are now five votes on County council to let the people give their opinion. Time will tell.
You know it might be time to get the union on the phone and see if they are still willing to make that 3 million in concessions. If they are Ron might look like a genius. The big contract is up at the end of the year. Negotiate a two tiered retirement plan, new hires 401K maintain the pensions for a set group allow them to cash out or enter the 401. Fill the 100+ empty beds, that are intentionally being kept empty. You might actually make a profit. The few voices in here that want to sell the place and insist they are the majority will lose if it is put on the ballot. The numbers are behind keeping it in county hands. Too many old school voters, thats why Angle is afraid of a vote. HE KNOWS. DO US ALL A FAVOR CALL THE UNION
The problem with negotiating with the union is that the union has no faith or trust of Angle and Stoffa. Why should they? They would be willing to compromise on future benefits and other things but negotiation must have at least an element of trust.
Both Angle and Stoffa have played games with pumped up numbers. Once they got a concession from the union Stoffa/Angle would move the goalposts, again and again.
The Union wanted "written" contractual assurances. Angle offered his word. Really? Angle's word is worth less than dirt to anyone with any sense.
So can we get a deal done, absolutely. Will a deal get done with either Angle or Stoffa, probably not. Since they have used bogus numbers and orchestrated this vicious and sad "war" between employees and some members of the public.
Sane and reasonable people could find a workable compromise, too bad there was deceit from Angle and Stoffa from day one on this issue.
A majority of County council could restore faith. they could demand an independent team to negotiate and make public a "deal" to save Gracedale for future generations.
I doubt it will happen but it is worth the effort. if the Administration is sincere.
Last time I looked Angle wasn't in the drivers seat. The new council president should take over, he doesn't seam to be a hothead or a sociopath, maybe something can be done. I know the workers are willing I don't know what the actual union people would be willing to do, it seams the members are not consulted with choices.
Problem is no one trusts Stoffa. It doesn't matter if it is Stoffa or Angle, they are the same thing in the eyes of both the families and union. Thee are no secrets in the government center. People know what the different agenda's are.
When Stoffa and Angle mislead and tried to deceive the union first time around, they lost trust. It is very hard to regain someones trust when you lied.
Also, John Stoffa when informed by the Alzheimer's group last year about circulating a petition, he wished them "good luck". Why not tell them he would fight the legality of their efforts.
The Angle/Stoffa strategy was based on people never getting the required petitions signed.
Now Stoffa is backtracking on his word. This is exactly what he did when he was first running and promised "binding arbitration" at a union meeting. Once elected he said he never agreed and couldn't recall saying those words.
So you see there is a serious lack of trust for both Angle and Stoffa and for good reason.
Looking into my crystal ball I would say on Friday the county and Stoffa are going to have more of a case then the previous argument.
We shall see what Baratta does then.
But....
There is ALWAYS appeal possibilities for either side which then can be heard by a Judge that isn't sitting in a county owned courthouse and depending on the vote of the NORCO tax payers and residents.
The people want to vote on this issue. This ant-democratic county leadership wants to ram this sale down our throats just like obamacare.
Listen to the people. The majority do not want the County to dump Gracedale.
This post would lead me to the conclusion that the issue transcends political party lines. I knew this as I spoke to many people while collecting signatures. And my signatures obviously were beyond reproach since I wasn't invited to Bernie and Rons WITCH HUNT. It might be political on the council however the public DEM or GOP want to keep the place. I would say Ron is looking for political trouble when he loses the Cousinhumperton voting block.
40 comments:
Nice try by worthy adversaries
Lawrence M. Otter, Esq.
Hey Bernie....I'll make it easy for you, no need to decipher anything. Two words "You LOST!"
Democracy won !!! Let the people decide.
I read several referals by the judge that stated that the objectors failed to establish items for the record. you very well may be right in your assertion that the matter should be tossed, but you and ron did sloppy lawyering.
you failed to meet the burden of proof on a number of matters and also didn't establish a clear record on other matters. you probably couldn't even get an appeal to stick on those front issues. sorry, but the whole thing will have to balance on whether or not this is a valid referendum under the county charter. on that front, we shall see. b/c the county will have a lawyer versed on these matter present, we have to assume the record will be well established.
this decision has restored my faith in a justice system that should work for all the people .
There still won't be enough signatures, will there be? The judge's number starts at 23,000, but the registrar's office starts at 20,000. Also, Baratta's a lefty from central casting who had his mind made up to throw you a bone, but ultimately protect the unions. He went lightly on the fraud passers and often goes lightly on criminals before him. He's spineless, but consistently spineless.
It is now more likely than not that the issue will be decided by the public.
There still won't be enough signatures, will there be? The judge's number starts at 23,000, but the registrar's office starts at 20,000. Also, Baratta's a lefty from central casting who had his mind made up to throw you a bone, but ultimately protect the unions. He went lightly on the fraud passers and often goes lightly on criminals before him. He's spineless, but consistently spineless.
Would you care to ID yourself and make your assertions to the juducial review panel
I'sure your false statements will get you a well deserved rest up the river.
Accusations by the baggers, Baratta is a respected judge and an excellent lawyer. Too bad you rested your case on a non-lawyer.
Baratta used real law, not the Angle and O'Hare law from Bizarro World.
Fact is now we will see if old "two-face" Stoffa will live up to his promise of last year to let this go to a vote if the court approves.
Fact is he doesn't have to challenge this; he wants to challenge this. This is not some massive Home Rule Charter constitutional crises. This is a plan between Angle and Stoffa that is de-railing and they are scrambling to cover their butts.
Thank God for America. Democracy reigns even when it is not bagger democracy, the only good kind according to some.
Let Freedom Ring!
Bring on the vote. The majority that gave you the majority doesn't want the black hole and it's breathtaking tax increase.
Bring on the vote. The majority that gave you the majority doesn't want the black hole and it's breathtaking tax increase.
Yes the tens of tens of you will show us
LOL
You should know by now Bernie and Angle have led you by your 1980's nose ring
and there will be no massive tax increase the true numbers will be brought out now that the curtain has been drawn back exposing the
Not So Wonderful Wizard of Schmooze
Larry, aka Bucks Barrister,
It was an honor to cross swords (but mostly words) with you.
I am a strong supporter of the Gracedale sale, but this seems like a perfectly reasonable judgement. BO, you failed to meet your burden of proof. You can exagerate circumstances on this blog,but not in a court of law. You and the Hornet laid a big fat goose egg.
I believe I put on a very good case. The Judge went our of his way to rule against us. I'll be discussing this later.
"I believe I put on a very good case. The Judge went our of his way to rule against us. I'll be discussing this later."
I certainly hope the judge didn't rule against you because of Union affiliations.
Although the fact that you say he "went out of his way" is somewhat interesting, and I look forward to your take on the matter. The question is are you willing to cross that line when it comes to a judge?
The fix is in. Look for the Dem judge to toss Stoffa's case as well. The decision has already been made.
Union Goon,
I believe the judge was predisposed to rule against us bc the Election Code imposes the burden on us and is to be construed to support the right to vote. So whenever he could conclude something either for us or against us, it was consistently against us. He neglected the equally important obligation to preserve the integrity of the election process.
But my disagreement is on the law, nothing else. I am casting no stones at his integrity, nor am I suggesting he threw this case for the unions. I believe he called it as he saw it, and I respect that.
I have been highly critical of Judge Baratta on this blog and in fact opposed his retention. I know it annoyed him bc I've been told that by people who know him. But I never asked him to recuse himself bc I thought he would be fair. He heard the case and has ruled against us. I completely disagree with his opinion and do not think it will withstand appellate scrutiny, but I believe Judge Baratta handled this matter fairly and called it as he saw it. I can't ask for more than that.
I have no complaints, except for the judge's reasonong, and I agree with about 60% of that.
Not every tax payer is willing to vote to save Gracedale.
I for one will not vote if it goes to ballot to save it and have my taxes raised substantially next year.
We need to get out of the nursing home business, we have no need to be in it. The residents will be better cared for by a private run facility who can make proper updates to not only the structure of the facility but the care the residents receive.
Despite what the union will tell you the reality is that no residents will be put to the curb and kicked out. Heck even most of the employees will still continue to work and earn a living.
So who loses here really? The Union and AFSCME!!
Again, lets get those employees and the cost of Gracedale off of our tax rolls.
i hope t.l. management backs out of the deal i'm sure they were assured a done deal(they'll never grt 20.000sig.)what if they have to wait til May?
We need to get out of the nursing home business, we have no need to be in it. The residents will be better cared for by a private run facility who can make proper updates to not only the structure of the facility but the care the residents receive.
Despite what the union will tell you the reality is that no residents will be put to the curb and kicked out. Heck even most of the employees will still continue to work and earn a living.
Vomit
your point has been rendered moot
I think the vote tomorrow might prove interesting
I read several referals by the judge that stated that the objectors failed to establish items for the record. you very well may be right in your assertion that the matter should be tossed, but you and ron did sloppy lawyering.
Did you ever stop to think
Maybe that is why he isn't a lawyer
Raising taxes is just a scare tactic being used to sway citizens in the County. I don't see why we would have to raise taxes if the report of a $60 million dollar surplus is true. If they would raise taxes it would be to cover the $20 million dollar bond fiasco' or as a payback for Citizens who had the passion to challenge them. People in this Country and County need to wake up....if I have learned anything it is Government doesn't work for the people today...it works for it's special interest. I find in saddening that some people wouldn't be ok with paying a $100 more a year in taxes to care for the elderly and disabled in need. I donate atleast that if not more to charites yearly and aren't our own Residents worth that. Gracedale is more than a Nursing Facility. It has always been a part of our Community, a home and last resting place for many. A society judges is people on how it treats it's children and elderly. To some this is a game...a point to be made and to others this is a testament of our priorities and humaneness. I for one don't want to turn my back on those I was taught to respect and have compassion for, The Elderly and less fortunate.
Come to the hearing on Friday.
The judge is very union-friendly and has some weird interpretations of law. You caught a bad draw. It was bound to happen in NorCo. It was easier to change council. It'll take longer to purge the bench. But it'll happen.
>the objectors failed to establish items for the record
>Maybe that is why he isn't a lawyer
By jove! I think you're onto something! Bernie, you're just a genuine flunkie.
Let's consider that the county had to jump through a few sizeable hoops to acquire staff working overtime (I think) and data processing muscle to wade through all of this stuff.
Bernie did not have anywhere near that kind of manpower or level of IT resources. I don't even think Ron helped him in his investigative endeavors.
Did you also notice that this blog continued to go to press business-as-usual each day while this was going on? The posts here don't write themselves, ya know...
Quite an effort for any one man to undertake. I applaud the effort regardless of the outcome.
If the initiative is passed and Gracedale kept, the county can declare bankruptcy as a precursor to extracting itself from union pension requirements. It's perfectly legal and fiscally sound.
Thanks Whethervain,
If I take a position, I have to be prepared to take the hit if things don't go as I think they should. Except for some struggling with my first witness, which was largely my own fault, I do think I put on a good case. I do think the judge erred. And the Registrar did testify that the signatures to which I was objecting did NOT overlap with her own rejections. He may not remember that, but I do. I and several others corrected him when he suggested, towards the end of the hearing, that we had not established that.
The Express account indicates the union still has a math problem, no?
Well Bernie you will always have the new age flat earthers behind you. I swear some of you folks must have come from another planet or been put through some brainwashing experiment.
Here a conspiracy there a conspiracy. Baratta did his job and he is a better "judge" of the law than Bernie O'Hare and Ron Angle. The law is what a judge says it is, ask any real lawyer.
Cry, piss and moan, it is what it is. The third leg of Northampton County's Unholy Triumvirate, John Stoffa will try his luck on Friday.
I am sure if that fails, he and Angle will have some other devious scheme up there sleeve.
By the way County Council could vote to put a question on the ballot to gauge public support.
Point of relevant information. The so-called $22 million dollar swaption deal is not at $11 million and dropping like a rock. Within a year some "real" financial guys have said it can probably be bought out at 6 to 7 million on the 'high' end. The Administration 2011 cost of Gracedale was pegged at $6 million, that is no longer six million. Due to the pension fund rebound and over estimated costs written into the budget, the true yearly operational costs are now pegged at about $4 million tops. Stoffa already put $3 million aside for an anticipated six months.
In reality for about one million to one and half million tops the place can be run for all of 2011.
This has never been about costs or patient care. This is about a political discussion by Angle and Stoffa and the deal they did to get Stoffa in office and the Angle puppets on Council.
You may find that there are now five votes on County council to let the people give their opinion. Time will tell.
The Love of True Liberty
You know it might be time to get the union on the phone and see if they are still willing to make that 3 million in concessions. If they are Ron might look like a genius. The big contract is up at the end of the year. Negotiate a two tiered retirement plan, new hires 401K maintain the pensions for a set group allow them to cash out or enter the 401. Fill the 100+ empty beds, that are intentionally being kept empty. You might actually make a profit. The few voices in here that want to sell the place and insist they are the majority will lose if it is put on the ballot. The numbers are behind keeping it in county hands. Too many old school voters, thats why Angle is afraid of a vote.
HE KNOWS.
DO US ALL A FAVOR
CALL THE UNION
Gracedale is a covered wagon trying to keep up with the traffic onn Route 22...dumps it before it`s worth nothing .
The problem with negotiating with the union is that the union has no faith or trust of Angle and Stoffa. Why should they? They would be willing to compromise on future benefits and other things but negotiation must have at least an element of trust.
Both Angle and Stoffa have played games with pumped up numbers. Once they got a concession from the union Stoffa/Angle would move the goalposts, again and again.
The Union wanted "written" contractual assurances. Angle offered his word. Really? Angle's word is worth less than dirt to anyone with any sense.
So can we get a deal done, absolutely. Will a deal get done with either Angle or Stoffa, probably not. Since they have used bogus numbers and orchestrated this vicious and sad "war" between employees and some members of the public.
Sane and reasonable people could find a workable compromise, too bad there was deceit from Angle and Stoffa from day one on this issue.
A majority of County council could restore faith. they could demand an independent team to negotiate and make public a "deal" to save Gracedale for future generations.
I doubt it will happen but it is worth the effort. if the Administration is sincere.
Reality Jones
Last time I looked Angle wasn't in the drivers seat.
The new council president should take over, he doesn't seam to be a hothead or a sociopath, maybe something can be done. I know the workers are willing I don't know what the actual union people would be willing to do, it seams the members are not consulted with choices.
Problem is no one trusts Stoffa. It doesn't matter if it is Stoffa or Angle, they are the same thing in the eyes of both the families and union. Thee are no secrets in the government center. People know what the different agenda's are.
When Stoffa and Angle mislead and tried to deceive the union first time around, they lost trust. It is very hard to regain someones trust when you lied.
Also, John Stoffa when informed by the Alzheimer's group last year about circulating a petition, he wished them "good luck". Why not tell them he would fight the legality of their efforts.
The Angle/Stoffa strategy was based on people never getting the required petitions signed.
Now Stoffa is backtracking on his word. This is exactly what he did when he was first running and promised "binding arbitration" at a union meeting. Once elected he said he never agreed and couldn't recall saying those words.
So you see there is a serious lack of trust for both Angle and Stoffa and for good reason.
Tears of Trust
Looking into my crystal ball I would say on Friday the county and Stoffa are going to have more of a case then the previous argument.
We shall see what Baratta does then.
But....
There is ALWAYS appeal possibilities for either side which then can be heard by a Judge that isn't sitting in a county owned courthouse and depending on the vote of the NORCO tax payers and residents.
Is Otter really that good of a lawyer?
Can GEICO really save me 15 percent on my car insurance in 15 minutes?
Larry is an election law expert. I thought we had him.
The people want to vote on this issue. This ant-democratic county leadership wants to ram this sale down our throats just like obamacare.
Listen to the people. The majority do not want the County to dump Gracedale.
The people want to vote on this issue. This ant-democratic county leadership wants to ram this sale down our throats just like obamacare.
Listen to the people. The majority do not want the County to dump Gracedale.
This post would lead me to the conclusion that the issue transcends political party lines.
I knew this as I spoke to many people while collecting signatures. And my signatures obviously were beyond reproach since I wasn't invited to Bernie and Rons WITCH HUNT. It might be political on the council however the public DEM or GOP want to keep the place. I would say Ron is looking for political trouble when he loses the Cousinhumperton voting block.
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