About Me

My photo
Nazareth, Pa., United States

Tuesday, March 03, 2009

The Real Reason Why Charlie Dent Voted Against the Stimulus - Nancy Pelosi

Newsweek tells us the real reason why Lehigh Valley Congressman Charlie Dent, despite being wooed by President Obama, ended up voting against his economic stimulus package.
[W]hen the president went looking for Republicans who might be persuaded to back his trillion-dollar economic-rescue package, Dent was at the top of his list. The week after the inauguration, Obama invited Dent, along with his wife and children, to the White House to watch the Super Bowl. A half dozen other Republicans Obama hoped to convert were also there. Over a dinner of hamburgers and hot dogs, the president and first lady put the full Obama charm offensive to work on the Dents. Michelle chatted up Dent's wife. Barack walked around serving hot oatmeal-raisin cookies. Sasha and Malia played Wii with the Dent children. For a journeyman lawmaker like Dent, being fussed over by the president of the United States was a heady experience. "I'll tell you," he says, "it's something you don't forget."

But in the end, it wasn't enough to win Dent's support. Along with every other Republican in the House, he voted no on the stimulus. He thought the plan was too expensive and weighed down with pet projects. But still, he might have been persuaded to go along—if it weren't for Nancy Pelosi.

76 comments:

Anonymous said...

BULLSHIT! Dent put on his chocker and was led by the neck like every other Republican because thats what Rush Limbaugh wanted him to do. Remember his marching orders, President Obama must fail.
Dent days are numbered in Congress. He is a hypocrite who took advantage of the Presidents good graces when he never intended to think for himself.
He is a coward despite your mancrush.

Bernie O'Hare said...

He is a coward yet you are anonymous.

Guess Newsweek has a mancrush, too.

Brad Moulton said...

Anon 12:31-

I think you mean "choker", but that's okay.. I'm going to say this as a Libertarian, so don't try and pigeon-hole me...

It appears that Democrats are trying to tie Republicans to Rush in order to marginalize them in the eyes of moderates. By continually bringing up what Rush said (without quoting the context of his statement) they seem to want to creat a wedge between most moderates who (understandably) do not like Rush and the Republicans.

Remember, Rush said that he wanted Obama's SOCIALIST policies to fail. I don't believe he said that he wanted the country to fail. There is a big difference.

Again, I think that pointing fingers at this party or that party is not going to help anyone. I think they both have their shortcomings and are simply addicted to the power. Things aren't going to change no matter how much "hope" you have.

Anonymous said...

I want to fail.

Whether at business, at buying a home, or whatever -- it seems like the money is easier in failing today.

Deb Messling said...

I guess I don't follow...he just said "Nancy Pelosi" and left it at that? It makes him sound like he voted no out of spite, because he doesn't like Pelosi. I doubt that's what he meant, but he should offer a better explanation.

Bernie O'Hare said...

Deb, I quote only a portion of the article, but I have linked to it and think it answers ytour question.

Anonymous said...

thank you charlie dent. stimulus package is bullshit. no one ever bailed me out i worked for everthing i have, i lived within my means. does anyone think this is really going to work? for the sake of this country i hope obama n company wake up and smell the coffee. i pray they see the error of there way.

Anonymous said...

darndest "liberal" blog i ever seen

Bernie O'Hare said...

I guess Newsweek must be conservative, too. One can be liberal and decry partisanship. That's what Obama does. You should try it and start listening to both sides.

J. SPIKE ROGAN said...

Bernie,
If we should "listen to both sides" as you say. Why did Dent NOT listen to the needs of his district?

He voted NO due to a petty little bitch, and I mean Chuckie Dent, not Pelosi!

Dent is more concerned what douche bags like Sean Hannitty will say. And less about the folks who elect him and pay his salary want.

I'm amazed the Valley went rather overwhelmingly for Obama. Aside from the fringe right that calls "McUngie" home.

Every leader in any government I think of that was more concerned about a radical fringe over the majority, they all seem to ruin their country and all ended up losers.

and while Anon 12:31 lacked balls to put their name up. I don't.

Charlie Dent REAL Americans live in the Lehigh Valley! Not perverted drug addict who send illegal alien maids to get their pills!

Bernie O'Hare said...

Spike, Unlike Charlie, I support the stimulus. I think the positives outweight the negatives, so I'm basically w/ Specter. But I think the bill produced would have been better if pelosi had followed Obama's advice and listened to the Rs. Instead, she jammed what she wanted down their throats. Why? Because she could. The end result is even more divisiveness than we had under Bush.

As far as Dent listening to his district, he claims most of the phone calls he was getting were anti-stimulus. That may not be an accurate reflection of how LV residents feel, but that's what he was hearing.

Dent does not knee jerk on things and is relatively independent. The President, who is nobody's fool, is obviously aware of that. He rightly attempted to develop a relationship w/ Charlie and I think that, had Obama been in charge on the House floor, that bill would have been less controversial. Most Rs would still oppose it, but some of them probably could have been persuaded with some changes. A bit less pork. More emphasis on taxc cuts.

Both sidess have good ideas. FDR, contrary to popular opinion, was no liberal. he was interested in what works. That's the approach we need to take. Pelosi does not serve that approach.

J. SPIKE ROGAN said...

YO BRAD!

You said "Remember, Rush said that he wanted Obama's SOCIALIST policies to fail. I don't believe he said that he wanted the country to fail. There is a big difference."

Amazing since W's admin handed out CORPORATE WELFARE like halloween candy!

Thats corporate socialism.

So People like you and Rush (Drug addict, illegal alien employer, and asshole maven) Limbaugh. Seem to like a un-American form of Government.

You oppose Democracy and back Plutocracy!

You want the working slaves to go to hell. While Corporate fat cats can ride on the backs of the working class.

Why was there no outrage when the banking fat cats (most of whom lobbied for the Ayn Rand Uber Libertarian free markets, no regulation bull.)Got tax dollars to save corportions that don't use reality in their daily business model.

That guy that spent bail out cash on $1,000 waste baskets.

Guess what, Rush Limpballs never was upset over that!

J. SPIKE ROGAN said...

Bernie,
I agree with you on the stimulus bill.

But I don't buy Dent's claims about the majority of his calls.

ONE did he provide any written records to this claim?

TWO How many were form calls (like form letters) from far right wing groups that lay mostly OUTSIDE the Commonwealth's borders?

I know when I contacted his office via Phone I had to give my name and address.

Just a thought!

Uncle Grinny said...

Spike's red-faced irrational spit flinging bluster is the most entertaining part of today's LVR. Thanks Spike! Keep it up! that's how you win friends and influence people!

J. SPIKE ROGAN said...

Here is Rush Limpballs himself admitting he wants Obama to fail.

The transcript from his own site backs up the media matters clip. In other words the LIE that it is edited and cut to be fool people is well that is the LIE not the clip!

http://mediamatters.org/items/200901280001?f=s_search



http://mediamatters.org/countyfair/200903020026

Bernie O'Hare said...

Spike,

I already told you I don't know whether the residents of this Congressional district oppose or support the stimulus. I do know that Dent said calls were running against it. It may just be that opponents are more vocal, as is often the case. But I would not express any doubt on Dent's honesty.

There was also a news account concerning a town hall in which the people who attended were pretty much anti-stimulus. I doubt there were any fringe groups in attendance from outside the district.

We really need to start listening to each other. The stimulus does not presage the advance of communism, as feared by many opponents. Health care is a good thing. Those community health centers actually end up reducing the cost of health insurance. On the other hand, the bill that passed could have been less pork-laden. Its top down approach is an invitation to disaster. More attention could have been paid to taxes. We could have drawn a better bill had we LISTENED to each other.

J. SPIKE ROGAN said...

Uncle Grinny if opposing DEMOCRACY and supporting anti-American policy that is Plutocracy (google it since your beloved AM radio douches won't explain this Political Science!) is what will win me friends.

I'd rather live alone!

J. SPIKE ROGAN said...

Bernie he is a Politician if you think he is honest your playing yourself as a fool!

Dent is full of it. He has yet to provide records of these calls.

It's bull shit, plain and simple!

At best it is 527 groups from the beltway spamming his office phone lines.

Bernie O'Hare said...

Uncle Grinny, Spike is a Phillies fan and looks like the Krucker. He comes on strong, but he's a lovable protagonist.

Bernie O'Hare said...

Spike,

Dent is a politician, but not all politicians are liars. Is Elinor Warner a liar? Is Obama a liar? Come on, dude. Be reasonable.

You're on target about Limbaugh. By expressing his desire that it fails, he demostrates that he places partisanship aboive the good of the country. Many Rs would even agree w/ you. But when you call him Limpballs, you just marginalize yourself and everything else you say.

I support the stimulus, but won't be foolish enough to proclaim it is perfect. I won't be foolish enought to deny it was rammed down our throats. The process used weas horrible. What could have been an answer may end up a disaster simply bc Pelosi refused to listen.

Don't repeat her mistake.

LVCI said...

Ah but... Charlie voted FOR the President's 2010 budget requests (H.R. 1105)! Some say laden with Pork too.
http://dent.house.gov/PressReleases.aspx?prid=301

Perhaps he's now joined the other16 on the sh*t list for doing so!
:)

Other Co-Sponsored Bills: Rep. Charles Dent [R, PA-15]
http://www.opencongress.org/person/cosponsoredbills/400648_charles_dent

Does Charlie get a piece of the 'PORK'? You BETCHA!
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r111:26:./temp/~r111ziNWXc::

If only the world was B&W, eh?

LVCI said...

OOPS!
I see the one link dropped.." Does Charlie get a piece of the 'PORK'? You BETCHA!"

(1) Click: http://thomas.loc.gov/home/r111query.html
OR on my name
(2) Under 'Enter Search: EARMARK DECLARATION
(3) Under " Member of Congress"- Dent, Charles (R-PA-15)
(4) Under, "Section of Congressional Record"- Extensions of Remarks

(Sorry that's the only way it will work)

J. SPIKE ROGAN said...

El is a member of City council. Politicians make a living from us. Governors, senators, congress persons, and President of the nation.

Our founding fathers saw small government like City council as more a civic duty.

And I'm sure Obama is as full of it was was W, Bubba Clinton, Dick Nixon, and so on.

As for Rush Limpballs. Well he was popping Viagra like M&M's. Its a accurate description.

LVCI said...

"Other Co-Sponsored Bills: Rep. Charles Dent [R, PA-15]"
Click On My Name

DAMN LINKS!

Bernie O'Hare said...

"As for Rush Limpballs. Well he was popping Viagra like M&M's. Its a accurate description."

How the hell would you know? Until you recongnize that your language is an instant turn off, you will always be marginalized, Spike.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to think Dent voted on behalf of the district, and not to spite Pelosi. How could anyone vote for something they haven't read and claim to looking out for the people? The congressman has never been led around by the Republicans, sometimes I wish he were.
BTW, I listen to Limbaugh often, and his comments were indeed about socialism failing so the country could thrive. It's about policy, not person.

Maureen said...

Regarding the Superbowl event... Dent's children did not play Wii with them... We asked Charlie how it was at the NCRC Lincoln Breakfast and he said it was good, but they Sasha and Mila didn't really come down and socialize with the other kids.

Anonymous said...

"The Banker" is Bernie O'Hare.

Bernie O'Hare said...

Cuckoo.

Anonymous said...

So even when our presidents reaches out with a hot oatmeal cookie Charlie Dent still votes no. What's up with that?

Allentown Democrat Voter

Anonymous said...

Can we please stop this myth that Obama is bipartisan and the problems with the stimulus bill were Pelosi's fault?

Even without having to veto the bill, Obama could have had anything he wanted put in (or taken out) of the bill. Both houses of Congress are controlled by his party. If Pelosi and Reid still wouldn't have listened, then Obama could still have vetoed it and told Congress to get it right without the pork.

Instead, he went on the road and pushed for it's swift passage in both the House and Senate. There is a crisis, after all, and that demands swift action. We can't let a good crisis go to waste.

The final bill was voted on before members even had time to read it - something that Obama could have easily stopped by issuing a statement that this was not how his administration would work and threatening a veto at that point if more time was not given.

Funny though - despite all that need for urgency - he was able to wait a few days to actually sign the bill so that he could arrange a political show in Denver.

Bottom line - Obama owns both the stimulus AND the process by which it was passed. People need to stop kidding themselves as to who Obama really is

Anonymous said...

Spike,

Anger seems to be a major motivator for you. While fury does provide energy it rarely affords insight or perspective.
At the risk of being shouted down and insulted let me write that I agree with Rush in his desire to see the Obama presidency fail. Were it to “succeed” we would have an expansion of government which is something fiscal conservatives abhor. Fiscal conservatives believe (as did the founding fathers) that the government that governs least governs best. It is therefore perfectly logical for us to hope that Obama does not “succeed” in his efforts enlarge the size and scope of government.
Did Republicans ever ask Democrats if they hoped the Bush presidency would succeed? Of course not, it would have been an unreasonable question to ask. Democrat leaders however did not wait for us to ask the question, they made plain their desire for Bush to fail. No one thought that was odd at the time so why are the same sentiments now expressed by some Republicans considered a heresy?
The answer to that is plain enough; it is simply a double standard that is being applied.

Scott Armstrong

Anonymous said...

Since someone brought up Rush Limbaugh, some things to think about:

1) I find it chilling that the President of the United States and his administration would continuously and personally attack a private citizen of the country. That is wrong.

Limbaugh is not the first (think Rick Santelli or even Joe the Plumber), and he will certainly not be the last. Personal attacks do not further true political discourse, and I frankly expect more out of someone who holds the office of President.

2) I keep hearing about how Obama is trying to drive a wedge between Republicans by marginalizing Limbaugh and those who listen to him.

If Obama is so bipartisan, so willing to reach across the aisle, and so open to all ideas - even those of his opponents - why is he trying to drive a wedge between Republicans?

That is the action of a slick, Chicago-style politician, not someone who truly wants to reach out to everybody. Isn't the President supposed to represent everyone, not just those who voted for him?

Obama's actions are counter to his claims that he is bipartisan and prove him to be a phony.

Anonymous said...

has anyone considered the obvious . . . that Dent is correct in his opposition to the stimulus bill and courageous to vote his convictions after being lobbied so hard?

Anonymous said...

Dear 1:34.

Short answer...No...Anyone with half a brain could take any side on most issues and make a somewhat reasoned argument for why they voted the way they did. I'm a D and I don't like pelosi either but Dent folded to his caucus, pure and simple..

Bernie O'Hare said...

Anon 2:34, I don't think so, especially after reading the Newsweek account.

Anonymous said...

I am so tired of Ds thinking Rs are idiots, Rs thinking Ds are idiots. Reasonable, intelligent people can disagree on things and still be reasonable and intelligent.

Everyone get off your soap box, high horse, bully pulpit, or whatever other thing you're using these days, stop thinking the other guy is a moron, and listen as well as talk. Who knows, you might learn something.

Spike, on the phone records - I was one of the people that called Dent's office. I am against the stimulus plan as presented because it contains too much pork, takes too long to get to anything of real impact, and does not require states getting operational assistance to deal with their own revenue shortfalls. Are there good things in it? Yes. And there's a lot of crap in it too. My opinion is the crap is too great. You disagree I know, but my opinion is not irrational and I am not voting now just to screw Obama. I am voting no because I sincerely believe this is bad legislation.

But while I am stating here that I called, I sure don't want to be on a published list of people that called. That was btw/ Rep. Dent and me.

If anyone in the R party asked my opinion I'd tell then that, right now, introduce "line item veto" legislation and give it to Obama. Then there are no excuses for anyone and if he means what he says, he can strike the crap and keep the good, act in a bipartisan fashion, etc.

Sure would be interesting to see.

The Banker

Anonymous said...

Dent is many things. Courageous is not one of those things.

His profession is politician. His objective is to stay in office.

Chris Miller said...

Anonymous
You hit the nail on square on its head. We forget that Mr. Obama is nothing but a Chicago thug. As to his relationship with Pelosi, don't forget for a minute that that is nothing more then good cop bad cop

To all who love the package and the budget.
Give me some answers. How do you justify this indebtedness being placed on the shoulders of your children, grandchildren and great grandchildren? When do you think the market will once again be trusted? In the Great Depression, and that term is being used, the banks went down in 1929, the market crashed and it did not return to a semblance of normal until 1952. When do you think the market will return to a normal state? Our kids know nothing about the market now they will never enter it. The teens voted for Obama because they believed that he would keep prices down so they could buy things. Will they be fixed or are they a gone generation?

As to Dent's vote, let me tell you that the phones to the Congress were ringing off the hook. I tried to reach Specter on his direct line and it was constantly busy. Called his Allentown line to leave a message. I ask them how an issue is running when I get a voice on the line. Dent's office told me numerous times, I called him several times on the package, that it was running against the stimulus by an overwhelming number. Stand by you are going to see a lot of prominent folks who voted for this guy coming out with regrets. I understand that Christopher Hitchens and Christopher Buckley have already expressed great concern and sorrow. And believe me there is great anger out there about this man. He is a fool. He sees himself as FDR and believes that the original Great Depression was bad because they did not spend enough to begin with. We are not even close to what the Democrats are going to spend. I would suggest that we keep an eye on the flight of wealth of this nation. I also believe that if national health care even gets close the doctors weill leave the nation.

Anonymous said...

Charlie Dent voted against saving the economy because he wants Obama to fail.

Brad Moulton said...

YO Spike!

Turn your hat around, turn off the rap and listen to me. I never condoned what the R's under Bush did. I don't think I ever said that. I'm for personal responsibility. Whatever happened to that?!

LVCI said...

Chris.. Obama's got lot's of company. While Charlie Dent did vote against the Stimulus.. He voted FOR President Obama's budget after he stuffed nearly 30 earmarks of his own!

Amongst a few Charlie's-
* Funding will enable the installation of 300 kW of photovoltaic (solar) panels on the roofs of multiple buildings at the Lehigh Valley Hospital campus in the City of Allentown, PA and the Lehigh Valley Hospital Muhlenberg campus in the City of Bethlehem, PA. These photovoltaic panels will produce a percentage of the total electricity required for the operation of the hospital buildings.

* Easton State Theatre- The project will facilitate significant facade repair and preservation, specifically windows and a restored marquee for the State Theatre in Easton, PA

* Cedar Crest College- Funding will be used to develop and implement a community-based, direct-care fall prevention program to reduce the risk of falling among the elderly population.

* Lehigh Career & Technical Institute- client servers and computer stations, category six network cable, digital web cameras, wireless connectivity, monitors, interactive whiteboards and software.

* Sacred Heart Hospital- funding will be used to purchase an eye microscope for cataract surgeries, a micro drill for orthopedic cases, an ECT monitor for treatment of clinical depression, two electric operating room beds..

* St. Luke's Hospital- will be used to purchase equipment for a new technologically advanced Operating Suite that is part of a $75 million hospital expansion project

* Old Allentown Streetscape- Improvements will include curbing and sidewalk replacement and the installation of decorative street lighting, trees

* Casa Guadalupe Center- The project will revitalize a neighborhood warehouse .. will provide services in health, education, social services and community development... and a health clinic for uninsured or underinsured individuals

* Renovation of the Bethlehem YMCA's dormitory- The project will renovate the Bethlehem YMCA's 60-year-old dormitory creating Bethlehem YMCA Affordable Housing, LLP. This facility will provide safe and affordable housing for low-income, homeless and the working poor men and women.

So much for fiscal watchdogs, eh?
:)

Rising Sun said...

Bernie, you are very correct, not all politicians are liars and crooks, even ones who mess up. I wish more people understood that. You are also, Charlie Dent is not a coward, there is nothing cowardly about voting against a President who won your district by more than 50,000 votes. That's gutsy, if stupid.

Now, on to Chris Miller, Scott Armstrong, and the anonymous fan of comedian Rush Limbaugh. First off, it is absurd to argue that "poor Rush is just a private citizen, it is so mean for the White House to attack him." That "private citizen" just rolled your national chairman, a governor or two, and several members of congress for their disagreement with him. He's as much a private citizen as Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, or Al Gore. He's not. He's essentially your movement's leader, and he's fair game.

Now on to the claims of Scott Armstrong that Democratic leaders "wanted him to fail." Name the Democratic leader who said in the days leading up to Bush's inaugural, "I hope the Bush Presidency fails." None did. This is a stupid claim Scott, you know better.

Now on to the broader claims of you and Chris Miller, that Obama's economic ideas are bad, and that conservative economics are good. Three times in our history, we have had Republican Presidents who sought to slash tax rates at the high end, cut spending on domestic programs, de-regulate financial institutions, and encourage a general laissez faire attitude on the economy. The three are Hoover, Reagan, and W. In each case, they oversaw gigantic stock market crashes that damaged even the next President's term. In each case they brought about recessions either in their own term, or early in the next. In each case, the gap between the rich and middle class (notice I'm not even going into the poor) expanded exponentially.

The point is this, to all of the GOP'ers, Miller, Armstrong, Dent, whoever, your ideology has failed. The alter of tax cuts is to a false religion, it's results are proven in history to fail. Charlie Dent is not a coward, or any other kind of ugly word, he's just wrong. The idea that all government is bad, and that we must rail against it has been disproven. Do not twist this to mean anything that it is not, there have been policy successes from the GOP in the White House, such as Eisenhower, but they did not come out of the Hoover crowd.

This is why Dent must go, because when push came to shove, in a critical moment, he sided with a failed ideology. There are scores of other issues, such as his absolute lack of clout being a lightweight in a hopeless minority caucus, but fundamentally, his biggest problem is that he believes in an ideology that fails his constituents.

It's my party's job to try and get a real Congressional challenger to beat him this time. We'll see if we do any better than we did last time.

Rising Sun said...

I also want to take a minute to take to task Chris Miller's posting for a second:

"You hit the nail on square on its head. We forget that Mr. Obama is nothing but a Chicago thug. As to his relationship with Pelosi, don't forget for a minute that that is nothing more then good cop bad cop"

Really now? You mean the way President Bush and then Majority Leader Trent Lott worked together? How about Tom DeLay and Bush, who had an openly hostile relationship. Calling the President a thug, 40 some odd days into his term, when he has yet to do anything criminal or undignified, is sickening.

"To all who love the package and the budget.
Give me some answers. How do you justify this indebtedness being placed on the shoulders of your children, grandchildren and great grandchildren? "

I'll be happy to justify it, at 25, because I'll be paying it until I die, hopefully many years from now. The other option right now, besides Obama's plan, is accepting failure. That is unacceptable. How do you justify putting a failed nation in the hands of your children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren. ALL of the ideas of conservatives like you have been tried, and they failed. This is our last, best hope we've got. Try this, and keep trying other things if it don't work. Doing nothing, or doing more of the Republican plans, is not an option.

"When do you think the market will once again be trusted? In the Great Depression, and that term is being used, the banks went down in 1929, the market crashed and it did not return to a semblance of normal until 1952."

This is a thinly veiled attack on the New Deal. How wrong you are though. In 1933, as FDR took office, the unemployment rate was 25%, or triple today's. In 1937, as he started his second term, it was 15%, the fastest and steepest rise in employment in American history. In 1937, they attempted to move back towards your thought line, and the market slid a bit. When they stopped this in 1938, they slowly, steadily, and consistently inched upward. Obviously, we will not see a 10% rise in employment (we'd be under 0%), but I believe we will see the market return to it's former self over time. I doubt this year, but perhaps within 2-5 years. One must hope for success here.

"The teens voted for Obama because they believed that he would keep prices down so they could buy things. Will they be fixed or are they a gone generation? "

This just shows how lost you are about this country. You think young voters are all so stupid, that they voted for Obama so they could buy some more abercrombie and fitch shirts. Really man? Let me let you in on a little secret:

-Young voters oppose the Iraq War, in no small part because their friends are dying in it, and in no small part because your side never came up with a coherent reason for it, or a coherent strategy.

-Young voters are turned off by your party's hate speech towards Latinos, homosexuals, Muslims, and any other number of groups you guys spent the last 8 years demonizing.

-Young voters aren't polarized by culture wars like older voters, yourself, usually are.

-Young voters don't listen to the mindless drivel of Rush Limbaugh like you folks, they are generally very tech savvy, and read blogs, foreign press, and educational material.

"And believe me there is great anger out there about this man. He is a fool."

Really now Chris? Can you read a poll? The public supports Obama and his agenda, and feels the opposite about your crowd. Don't let reality get in the way though man. I understand that activist conservatives, like yourself, are angry, but understand this, your breed is in decline right now. The country does not stand with you, and I'll venture a guess, whether Obama succeeds or not, the next President will not fit the angry, old, government is bad, white guy, conservative mold you have run before. I won't say your party won't ever win the White House back, you will, but your party will change first, for the better.

Anonymous said...

Sunny,

Why not read and comprehend a post before you attempt a response? If you had done so with my post you would have answered your own question and saved me the trouble of repeating myself. In the mean time this is what I wrote before, “Did Republicans ever ask Democrats if they hoped the Bush presidency would succeed? Of course not, it would have been an unreasonable question to ask.”
Would you care to make the case that if asked, leading Democrats would have answered affirmatively? Would you now care to make a “stupid claim”?

Scott Armstrong

Anonymous said...

Sunny,

One more thing, some of us don't have the time or inclination to read lengthy unstructured diatribes. Your arguments, whatever they are would be much more effective if written in a more reader friendly format.

Scott Armstrong

Rising Sun said...

In other words Scott, you couldn't spin it: your ideology failed. There's nothing "diatribe" like to it, the three worst economic collapses in American history happened as a result of Hoover, Reagan, and Bush II, the 3 most "laissez faire" Presidents ever. Your ideas are wrong. History proved it. One could argue that even Nixon caused no less than some of the later 1970's problems, but I'll stick to the obvious proof of your ideology's failure.

For your first point, you're full of it, now seeking to re-cast your comments. You are trying to make the argument that Democrats acted the same about Bush as Limbaugh has about Obama, and that's just flat out false. It's a stupid argument to even try to hint at, and you're wrong.

Rising Sun said...

Scotty,

Click my name, you'll find my own site, if you want reader friendly from me, come on over. I'm fine with debate anytime.

Anonymous said...

Sunny,

Reader friendly="full of it"?

Keep up the excellent work of making conservative posters look good by comparison.

Scott Armstrong

Rising Sun said...

Scott,

You do not look good. You are defending failure. It's ok though, you're credible, based on the state of Allentown's GOP.

Anonymous said...

Scott, you really are a right wing 'ideologue'. Rising Sun made more sense in one post than you ,Banker, Chris Miller or all the other right wing nuts combined.

Randy Kistler

Bernie O'Hare said...

Score one for The Rising Sun, Rich Wilkins. He's got a point, Scott. I think there's only 3 Allentown Republican left, and your two sons are too young to vote.

This is a close one, folks, and I'd rate this discussion a tie so far. I disagree w/ Randy. But I like the fact that conservative Scott and liberal Rich can talk to each other. Spike Rogan dropped the standard earlier today by making an idiot out of himself, but Rich has picked it up and has argued well w/ Scott, who might be the best conservative thinker in A-town.

Anonymous said...

"...3 most "laissez faire" Presidents ever..."


Please. Read some history prior to the year of your birth before making such an asinine statement.

Rising Sun said...

Anon 10:51, I assure you, I was born far, far after Hoover.

Thank You Bernie. I appreciate the compliment. Truth is, as I said before, this isn't about Charlie being a coward, he wasn't at all here. I just think he was wrong. Scott clearly thinks he was right. It's based on belief, not character shots.

Anonymous said...

"-Young voters are turned off by your party's hate speech towards Latinos, homosexuals, Muslims, and any other number of groups you guys spent the last 8 years demonizing."

I'm turned off by the fact that you include "Muslims" in your foot-stomping post when Muslims would be very happy to stone homosexuals to death -- and in places under Sharia law -- do.

Of course, we wouldn't want to offend any Muslims by pointing out their barbaric practices towards gays, women and even some disabled children unlucky enough to live under their grace.

I would pay good money to watch these monolithic "young voters," you type about live for a month in the parts of Pakistan that have been placed under Sharia law.

Should they survive, unstoned, unraped, with hands not chopped off, not beaten for going about uncovered, for driving (if they're a woman) for reading (if they're a woman) for dancing or for listening to music, then we can talk about "hate speech." MM-kay?

Post script: People who work for a living, who employ other people for instance, are turned off by your party's constant desire to make that harder.

Anonymous said...

"Young voters oppose the Iraq War, in no small part because their friends are dying in it . . ."

Excluding of course the many young voters who are serving their country in uniform who believe in what they're accomplishing in Iraq.

You know, I don't know what image to be prouder of in American History over the last five years?

Would it be the image of an African-American being inaugurated as our President?

Or would it be the image of that Iraqi Woman with the ink on her thumb coming out of a voting booth. Democracy in the cradle of civilization, who woulda thunk it?

Bernie O'Hare said...

Wow! Those are two magnificent images. I think that's something we can all agree on.

Anonymous said...

"-Young voters don't listen to the mindless drivel of Rush Limbaugh like you folks, they are generally very tech savvy, and read blogs, foreign press, and educational material."

This reminds me of the classic scene from Dr. Strangelove where an American General offers the Russian Ambassador a Dominican cigar.

"No thanks," says the Russian Ambassador. I don't support the efforts of capitalist stooges!"

The American General nods and says, "Oh. Only commie stooges, eh?"

There is nothing that sums up the turpidity of the Obama White House more than the fact that they are taking shots every day at conservative radio hosts or the occasional tv talking head that disagrees with them.

It must be getting drafty for the Emperor Without Any Clothes.

By the way, another tax cheat put up for a high position in the government today.

Proving the genius of the Obama approach to governing -- find the people who are smart enought to cheat on their taxes -- and let them fix the economy. Actually, I hope it works.

Anonymous said...

Agreed. Actually, when you think about it -- it is kind of cool.

That being said, 6800 and change ain't going to cut it for long.

Sorry, sorry. Didn't mean to ruin the moment.

Rising Sun said...

Anon, have you ever been to a mosque in America? How about to suburban Detroit? In many, many communities, Muslims live peaceful lives in this country, just like every other group. It is incredibly unfair to judge these Americans or their religion by their fellow Muslims behavior in other parts of the world. Do all of us Catholics, or all Jewish folks, or all Hindus, want to be judged by the behavior of some of our fellow believers in other nations? I mean, Pakistan is not comparable to America. Remember though, it was not long ago in America when some people were terrorized and left to live in inferior conditions due to the color of their skin. That in your "Christian Nation."

So yes, I call it hate speech. I call it hate speech when someone wishes to single out groups for ridicule for their beliefs, orientations, or born characteristics. Your party singled out Latinos in the illegal immigration debate, when the majority of illegal immigrants are not of Latino ancestry, but hey, it's easier politics to talk about the Mexican border than the Canadian one. Your party singled out homosexuals as a political strategy, albeit one that worked, in 2004, putting ballot initiatives in important states to ban gay marriage. Hey, it's easy to attack a small minority of the population though. Your party has a history of that I guess, and I'm not going to change it tonight.

Now on to your last point. Bill Clinton's tenure saw the creation of 21 million jobs, or roughly triple that of G.W. Bush. Explain to me how Democrats are against people employing people? We're against the unbridled capitalism that resulted in disaster now, sure, but we're not going to kill small businesses, that's just GOP talking points. If you figure out a way to explain to me how we're against employment, remember, use of the word socialism automatically makes you look like a wing-nut.

Rising Sun said...

Anon 11:11, your imagery is commendable. However, the fact does remain, most youths oppose this war. In fact, no small fraction of servicemen and women do too. I understand that some don't, but that is understandable, and I'm not going to go after them for that. The war is a debacle though, and your party's insistence on it's continuance through the last Presidency hurt you badly with young voters. Period.

Anon 11:19, young people are much less inclined to listen to Limbaugh, or liberal radio, or any of it on TV. They get their news from alternative sources, usually a great variety, and are less inclined to be "ditto heads." It's why that kind of rhetoric does not reach the next generation. I'd love to know how "the emperor has no clothes though." I mean seriously, 68% of Americans are approving of Obama as of today, as opposed to the 19% who agree with you. Most of us would say, you are wrong sir.

Anonymous said...

Dear Rising Sun --

The mosques of which you speak in Detroit are likely some of the same ones where Muslims danced in the streets on Sept. 11, 2001, where Israel flags are walked on and American flags burned on a dishearteningly regular basis.

By your reasoning, since they live in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave (thus not needing to fear a stoning for speaking out of turn) these folks should be denouncing the numerous attrocities committed in Allah's name, on a very regular basis.

And yet, I don't hear much condemnation of the wild side of their family, so to speak, do you?

Perhaps you'll be brave enough to post here your agreement with me that the firebombing of Denmark's embassies because a Danish newspaper ran a cartoon could have been greeted with a bit more agita for moderation from America's muslim communities. Sadly, that did not really, occur did it.

Would you, however, like to see the statements that CAIR released on the subject or do you realize that they would make your position tenuous?

Further, dear Rising Sun I didn't have a word to say about illegal immigration in my post.

Personally, I think illegal immigration is an affront to the people who go through the proper processes to enter our country and to the taxpayers (all of us) who are required to foot the bill for illegals' education, hospitilization and incarceration.

(Perhaps you're aware of the case being investigated by Northampton County's Democrat District Attorney involving an illegal immigrant with six DUI offenses under his belt. I admit to being a tad perturbed that this fellow is in my country illegally and is putting lives at risk on the road. He is also undoubtedly costing all of us money. But, that's just old "law and order" voter, me.)

Your mention of anti-homosexual ballot initiatives doesn't quite work when you look at who votes for those initiatives. Let's look at Prop 8 in California. We will pretend that angry, homophobic white Christians were solely responsible for getting this measure on the ballot to make you feel better about being superior to them.

How do you explain the fact that all exit polling shows that the measure was heavily supported by both African-Americans and Latino Americans (durn Catholic church-goers)? What was that loud noise? That was the sound of your "young voters" Kumbayah Train flying off the rails.

Perhaps, you can enjoy this delicious irony though -- some of the Hispanic voters that voted for Prop 8 might have been in this country illegally.

Regarding your job creation statistics. Please, the only thing that stuck with me me from the one statistics course I had in college was the professor telling us the first day the bit about there being three kinds of lies. Most people who read this erudite blog, probably know how that one ends.

Would you like me to find you a set of numbers that says that your numbers are full of beans? If it weren't near midnight, I'd get right on it. I'd even cite it for you, unlike your uncited claim.

Anonymous said...

"They get their news from alternative sources, usually a great variety, and are less inclined to be "ditto heads."

You mean like the Daily KOs? The Huffington Post? Keith Olbermann (sp?)

Stuff that the lead singer from Green Day posts on his MySpace page?

Anonymous said...

"I understand that some don't, but that is understandable, and I'm not going to go after them for that."

That's commendable. If it was practical for security reasons, I would say you should go down to Ft. Dix on a drill weekend. Many of the young men and women who are serving our country from this area drill there.

I had the opportunity to visit family there once, and I don't think the great majority of the people, especially younger troops are as in league with the "young voters" position as you seem to think.

Oh, it used to be easier to get on base back in the day, but wouldn't you know it, the plot to infiltrate the base and kill people by some nice young Muslim boys who attended a respectable American Mosque made them really tighten up security.

Remember that one? They were going to get on the base by delivering pizzas. Yeah, Catholics and Buddhists are pulling thst same stuff all the time now, these days.

Rising Sun said...

Uncited claim? We now have to cite the most basic of the Clinton era achievements, his 21 million jobs? This sounds like you just wanting to dispute anything. If you want to debate this though, here is the Clinton White House's claims: http://clinton5.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishments/eightyears-03.html. Here's a pre-recession FOX News article saying Bush's job creation was slower than Clinton's, and soundly: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,242424,00.html.

As for the 9/11 dancing in the street, to my knowledge, 99.999999% Muslims, yes in Detroit, were not in any streets dancing, unless you now consider Gaza part of America. Again here, your judgment is ridiculous, a conservative Christian blew up the Oklahoma City building. Did we go passing laws to limit their travel rights? The rest of your foreign claims, I think are sufficiently answered in my previous post. None of us want to be singled about because of radicals in other nations doing wrong things in our names. I could not care less what CAIR said about any of it though, the main basis of my point is that millions of Muslims world wide, and here, live peaceful lives, free of hatred, and do not deserve to be characterized by a jokester on a blog, cherry-picking acts by their fellow Muslims that make them look bad. Again I say, Catholics once had the Inquisition. Christianity is used as a basis behind KKK teachings. Are we all to be judged for that? No.

The point on illegal immigration is not that it is not a problem, obviously some guy driving around with 6 DUIs is bad, regardless of their residency status. The point is that YOUR side attempted to use Latinos as a scapegoat in the 2006 election specifically, and really since, talking about the broken border to our south. How about the better than half of illegals who are not hispanic? We nearly never hear of them from the right.

If you would read California exit polling, rather than read media stories about it, Prop 8 was overwhelmingly backed by white, conservative, Christians. This is as it was in nearly a dozen other states four years ago. Yes, Latino and African-American voters backed it, but they alone would not have pushed Prop 8 over the top. Younger voters, even within those categories, also predominantly opposed Prop 8.

Rising Sun said...

If you believe the average college student voter is getting their news from Billie Joe Armstrong of Green Day, I have a land deal in Arkansas for you.

Pro-war sentiment is always strongest with those who fight wars. Why? How hard must it be to fight in a battle you don't believe in? It kind of answers itself. I think the point here is that, roughly 50% of military families approved of President Obama, a large number for recent Democrats, at last check. While I would agree that probably better than 50% of young military members approve of the war, the number of those against is much higher than one might guess. I can as an anecdote, say that about one in every three military friends of mine disagree with our continuation of the Iraq War as of last year. The broader young public is more like 2/3's against.

In each of these cases, I am not suggesting a monolithic, 100-0 vote for Obama amongst youths, but they did give him his largest gaps, for the reasons I stated before. The GOP is just not appealing to them very well at all.

Anonymous said...

"The point on illegal immigration is not that it is not a problem, obviously some guy driving around with 6 DUIs is bad, regardless of their residency status."

No. The point is that people like you dismiss the fact that the (going into ALL CAPS MODE TO TRY TO BREAK THROUGH A ROCK HARD SKULL) GUY WAS IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY WHILE WRACKING UP 6 DUIS! SIR. IS IT BEGINNING TO PENETRATE THE BONE IN YOUR HEAD?

Simply saying, "Fa. It is bad to have 6 DUIs. La." does not make a point relating to the discussion at hand.

(ALL CAPS AGAIN FOR THE PURPOSE OF ECHO LOCATING THIS "YOUNG VOTERS" BRAIN)

WHAT WOULD REALLY BE "BAD" DUDE, WOULD BE IF THIS GUY WIPED OUT SOMEONE'S THREE YEAR OLD AND THAT WOULD NOT HAVE NEEDED TO HAPPEN IF HE HADN'T BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY OR ALLOWED TO REMAIN IN THIS COUNTRY AFTER HIS FIRST OFFENSE.

I'll let that thought riccochet around this "Young Voter's" skull until it attaches to a functioning net of neurons.

Alas, I am not holding my breath.

Joe Hilliard said...

Rising Sun,

Great argument, but it is not based on facts.

First, Hoover RAISED taxes, INCREASED government spending and expanded/created programs and passed the Smoot Hawley tariff act to "protect" American industry.

All actions worsened the Depression. FDR came into office and declared that more had to be done and a normal recovery was delayed until after WW2.

The three big tax cuts were under J.F. Kennedy, Reagan and W. All three led to booming employment, rapid GDP growth and federal revenues that INCREASED at a rapid rate. The problem? Spening by Congress (both parties) increased even more.

The factual history is clear. The "conclusion" that Hoover "caused" the Depression is true. He used massive government spending and intervention while raising taxes.....

Anonymous said...

Rising Sun wrote:

"First off, it is absurd to argue that poor Rush is just a private citizen, it is so mean for the White House to attack him."

The fact is that he IS a private citizen. I don't believe Limbaugh EVER ran for anything. His "crime" is speaking what he believes in.

Do you think that Obama is the first President to face criticism from members of the media or commentators? Of course not.

I just think it's both wrong and beneath the office for a President to engage in a fight with a private citizen. It makes the President look very small. It certainly is NOT the action of someone trying to unite the country.

I think the actual purpose of Obama's criticism of Limbaugh is threefold:

1) Try to drive a wedge between the Republican Party (again, not the actions of a "uniter");

2) To at all costs avoid having to debate the ideas that Obama has declared failed (much like Al Gore proclaiming the Global Warming debate "over"). If there is one thing Obama fears, it would be an open debate on conservative ideas vs. his "solutions" (or, apparently, even just debating Obama's "solutions" - hence the need to rush on everything he proposes);

3) To help distract the public from all the reckless spending, new taxes, debt and borrowing Obama is having pushed through Congress.

Anonymous said...

Sunny,

So according to your words I “do not look good and I am defending failure”, so you are the arbiter of what looks good?
Tell me what failure I am defending, is it the time test idea that government is but a necessary evil? This philosophical approach to government sprang from the period of enlightenment. Men such as Thomas Paine and Adam Smith wrote extensively on the merits of limited government and its relation to liberty and commerce, but perhaps Mr. Rising Sun you know better.

I think the moniker “Rising Sun” says it all.


Scott Armstrong

Anonymous said...

It's a good thing that our stupid soldiers have enlightened individuals like Rising Sun to do their hard thinking for them.

Anonymous said...

there is sexism behind the white males critisim of nancy pelosi. a lot of mother issues out there! she's 3rd in charge of the world, get over it.

Bernie O'Hare said...

Give me a break. Instead of looking at her sex, look at what she's doing. Frankly, you are the sexist. No woman can do wrong. It's ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

Yeah well Bernie, I got my eye on you. Watch the women bashing! Even the ones you like (Peg) you insult discreetly (all you can say is she's a mother of the men. That takes no education or talent, just an innate maternal instinct that does not come into the board room and qualifies no person for anything but babysitting).

I am looking for anywhere you praise a female in here the way you praise men but haven't found 1 instance yet.

Maybe I'm wrong about your prejudice...Overall I like what you are doing here. Hard work, no pay. Why do you do it?

Bernie O'Hare said...

Considering that council, that's about the biggest compliment I can give to anyone. They NEED a mother.

I earns very little, about $40 per month from google ads. I do this bc I am a frustrated writer and bc I feel I can fill a gap betweeen what is in the newspaper and what is actually happening.

maverick said...

bernie, i couldn't agree with you more- had obama taken control of this bill and not outsourced it to pelosi, this would have been a better bill. i have to say, i'm very disappointed, after all the talk about the "end of earmarks." although more transparent,we're still seeing tons of pork.