I may be a Dem but I've got to be honest. It wasn't pretty. And it wasn't close. On Wednesday night, Congressman Charlie Dent totally destroyed challenger Charles Dertinger during a debate sponsored by the Pen Argyl Area Concerned Citizens at the Lookout Fire Hall.Before a group of about forty slate belt residents, Dent moved smoothly from issue to issue, displaying a disarming casual manner combined with an impressing command of facts. Although Dertinger himself is no slouch, he simply was no match for Dent. Fortunately for Dertinger, this debate was not televised. I don't think a reporter was in sight. For that, Dertinger can thank his lucky stars. He should not complain too loudly about Dent skipping out on the LVLWV debate. Dertinger is AAA with potential, but Dent is definitely in the show.
It was a terrific evening for the spectators. Each candidate was permitted to make a brief opening statement. After that, a three member panel posed challenging questions, followed by inquiries from the public. After we all had our say, candidates were allowed to cross-examine each other.
There were actually three debates last night. Let me briefly describe them.
1) 15th Congressional District candidates: Charles M. Dertinger (D), Charles W. Dent (R) and Greta Browne (Green):- Dent Wins!
Although I've told you that Dent convincingly won this debate, it's not because I agree with his slightly conservative positions. He explained his negative campaign tactics by saying Dertinger had attempted to link him to convicted lobbyist Abramoff, a person Dent has never met. "One who throws stones should not live in a glass house." He also stressed that, like it or not, corruption has become an issue nationwide.
When questioned about Iraq, Dent responded there's a "right way and wrong way to leave." He opposes immediate withdrawal because that would make the world a far less secure place. Dertinger also opposes immediate withdrawal. "We can't just walk away." But Dertinger would also push hard for Rumsfeld's resignation.
Neither candidate was thrilled about impeaching Bush. Dertinger thought it was mean-spirited and Dent noted that impeaching a president in wartime would send the wrong message to our enemies. (I've got the best reason - if we impeach Bush, we get Darth Vader.)
The biggest surprise to me was Dent's enthusiasm about solving our energy crisis. He's all for using every available source of energy we've got, from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources. He is a staunch advocate of hydrogen as an alternative (and cleaner burning) fuel source, and actually wants to convert I-78 into a "hydrogen highway." Is this hot air?
While Dent remained calm, Dertinger was unhinged a few times tonight. When questioned by Ron Angle about a county council vote, he lost his cool. "It's always great to have Ron ponificate on the issue of responsibility." From there, he started deteriorating further until the moderator stopped and reminded him we had all agreed to ask tough questions but remain polite. Dertinger also made the mistake of stating he had been "dragged into this race," and Dent wanted to know who "dragged you in. Sounds like you didn't want to do it. I'm here because I want to be here." At the end of the debate, Dertinger accused Dent of reading prepared answers from a script even though it was plain to all that the responses were extemporaneous. Dent just happens to know a lot, and Dertinger was grasping for straws.
2) 16th State Senatorial District candidates: Richard Orloski (D) and Pat Browne (R): - Orloski Wins!
Although they are both very cordial and unassuming, Rick Orloski was a pleasant surprise. He believes a LV medical school will bring us 450 quality jobs and improve our health care. He also proposes lobby reform, cutting the size of our legislature, and passionately defended unions when a right to work advocate, i.e. union buster, began complaining. He's an old pro at running for office. Will somebody please elect him? He laughed at himself throughout the night and was quite charming. I really regret that until last night, I never heard Orloski. He has terrific ideas and really cares about the community. Rick gets the edge on this one.
3) 18th State Senatorial District candidates: Lisa Boscola (D) and Bonnie Dodge (R): - Dodge Wins! (by default)
On Labor Day, Lisa Boscola personally committed to appear at last night's debate. But late yesterday, her office called the organizers and explained she had a scheduling conflict and would be unable to appear. This is the second debate she canceled this week. As an incumbent with tremendous name recognition and money, she apparently does not want to give her opponent, Bonnie Dodge, any visibility.
As much as I understand the political tactics, I believe Boscola's absence was insulting to the Pen Argyl Area Concerned Citizens and those of us who came to listen. She apparently will do her talking through scripted campaign ads funded by her $200 thousand warchest. This enabled Dodge to tell us, "I want to earn the seat. I don't want to buy it."
Although Bonnie Dodge is a right wing conservative, I don't doubt her sincerity and think her campaign is a breath of fresh air. Lisa is still the better candidate for someone with my views, but she disappointed tonight.
28 comments:
Initiating the impeachment process would lead to an investigation that would implicate lots of people in the Bush administration who are guilty of committing crimes, including Cheney.
So...
Do-It-Yourself Impeachment Due Today!!! (Oct 12)
The day the nation demands impeachment is almost upon us. Today (Oct 12), sacks and sacks of mail will be sent to congress demanding impeachment via the House of Representative's own rules. This legal document is as binding as if a State or if the House itself passed the impeachment resolution (H.R. 635).
There's a little known and rarely used clause of the "Jefferson Manual" in the rules for the House of Representatives which sets forth the various ways in which a president can be impeached. Only the House Judiciary Committee puts together the Articles of Impeachment, but before that happens, someone has to initiate the process.
That's where we come in. In addition to the State-by-State method, one of the ways to get impeachment going is for individual citizens like you and me to submit a memorial. ImpeachforPeace.org, part of the movement to impeach the president, has created a new memorial based on one which was successful in impeaching a federal official in the past. You can find it on their website as a PDF.
STOP WAITING FOR YOUR MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO ACT FOR YOU.
You can initiate the impeachment process yourself by downloading the memorial, filling in the relevant information in the blanks (your name, state, etc.), and sending it in. Be a part of history.
http://ImpeachForPeace.org/ImpeachNow.html
According to the U. S. Constitution Congress alone has the power to declare war. And to impeach. Since the Congress has done neither, all are derelict in their duty to show cause why our war criminal troops are not immediately jerked out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and why Bush has not been impeached. Bush supports homoerotic torture and rape, with flashlights, with broomsticks, with a wannabe gay psychopath, whatever and whoever, mostly against Iraqis and Afghanis who have never done anything but be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The question for the 15th Congressional District voters is how much Bush slime has rubbed off on Dent? Bush likes torture and rape with flashlights. Dent likes Bush. Ergo....?? Minor premise, major premise etc.
To Causal, If what you say is true, and citizens have a right to at least commence the impeachment process on thier own initiative, the House Judiciary must still draft articles of impeachment. And that's just not going to happen.
I believe the House will go Democratic in the next election, and that's when you'd have the best shot. But many Dems are opposed to impeachment. And that includes Dertinger in this district.
Thanks for your comment and the link.
To Anon 12:47, Bush supports supports "homoerotic torture and rape, with flashlights, with broomsticks, with a wannabe gay psychopath, whatever and whoever, mostly against Iraqis and Afghanis who have never done anything but be in the wrong place at the wrong time?"
Listen, I don't care for the guy, and I'm deeply distrurbed by some of his callous remarks and his executive order negating Geneva conventions. But I never heard anyone actually accuse him participation in sexual assaults until today. I believe he suported a climate in which that kind of conduce was possible, but don't think he foresaw that as a likely result of some of his policies.
FtHillDem, I'm not an objective reporter. I'm just a shlep w/ a blog. "A nitwit ranting in his underwear." But I was there. And I judge a debate on both style and substance. Dent was better in both categories. And my opinion was pretty much shared by everyone there. It wasn't close.
I disagree with Dent's positions on many issues and have been very impressed by the things Dertinger has said. And I've been turned off by what I viewed as negative attacks from Dent and his "ducking" debates. I've posted on both those subjects. I walked into that room w/ a bias in favor of Dertinger.
But there is no question in my mind that Dent won that debate, and convincingly. He did it with his smooth style, as you note. But he was also better prepared. I did not like some of his answers, but he ducked no questions and had lots of details. He rebutted the accusation that he increased military spending while reducing benefits to the poor, children and students. He recited increase after increase. I suspect there's some fuzzy math in there somewher but was in no position to contradict Dent last night. And what's worse, neither was Dertinger.
I am the person who posed the question about the mudslinging.
Dertinger did his best and had his moments, but he's going to have to do better. And the last thing he needs to do is lose control, as he did a few times last night. He lost it w/ Angle, made the unfortunate remark that he "was dragged" into the contest, and accused Dent at the end of reading prepared statements (something that was demonstrably false and quite silly).
As far as casualties in Iraq are concerned, I read the report and it disgusts me. But only 3 Democrats voted for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. (That's something I learned last night). I think immediate withdrawal could lead to genocide and a much larger death toll.
Dertinger and Dent are actually very close on Iraq. They both want to get out. Neither supports immediate withdrawal.
As far as media coverage is concerned, Bill White had a thoughtful post about that very topic on his own blog. I think papers stay away bc they try to avoid being spun by candidates who can buy a few ads if they want to make some pronouncement.
Whatever the reason, Dertinger is very lucky the press was not there. He can learn from his performance and try to imporve. He'll be facing Dent 4 or 5 more times, something I did not know until last night.
Last night was the best and most entertainig debate I ever attended. FtHillDem, I wish you could have come. I think you would have enjoyed the give and take and you could have asked Dent yourself about hydrogen.
Thanks for your comment.
I don't know what to think about Mr. Orloski, I just met him on Monday. His firm is represnting us.
But I can tell you this, his two sons are lawyers and they both have the middle name of Law.
fthilldem, relax a little bit. I take politics very seriously and find it offensive when people belittle the process with statements like "all politicians are corrupt," but I don't take it personally. Bernie is calling it the way he sees it. I know somebody else who was there who had some unkind words about Dertinger and most of it was followed by claims of ineptness by Joe Long. Bernie makes a statement of opinion by saying he feels that Dent was the better debater last night and that the better debate won.
That said, I will vote for Dertinger and still continue to assert that Dent, when push comes to shove, has no values and goes where the wind takes him. But Bernie is perfectly within his right to call it the way he sees it.
Bernie, you can send that beer and cash to PO Box 8500, Lehigh Valley Pa.
oh, and Rick Orloski is the nicest guy that I've met but he's never going to win if he allows himself to be viewed as the guy who runs every year. I have him down for every even year election since 2002 (against Dent in 2002 for state senate, in the primary for congress in 2004, against Browne in 2006). At some point, he'll give up.
That said, he's an extraordinarily nice guy, very skilled at communicating and extremely intelligent. But run for office that many times and you know how to debate.
Just from what I seen at the few county council meetings I have been to, Dertinger just doesn't impress me. I thought for a while that he and McClure were joined at the hip. But I saw them on different sides of an issue recently so, maybe not. LV dem why are you voting for him?
FtHillDem& LVDem, LVDem stole my thunder and says it pretty well. The whole point of my post was that last night, Dent was the better debater. I love the give and take of debates and even the give and take in the comments on this blog. Let's face it, I love to argue. I'm Irish. We love to drink and argue. And since IU no longer drink, I have to compensate by being more and more disagreeable.
I do take politics somewhat seriously and take good government very seriously.But that doesn;t mean I don't enjoy it. I sat on my ass for three hours last night in a stuffy room with a bunch of old farts and had a blast. I was actually pumped up after the debate, and wrote my impression.
Today, Dertinger and Dent went at it at Kirkland Village. From what I understand there will also be two TV debates and another off air debate. So there will be a total of 5 debates. I think the press will certainly cover some of them. They probably were not at last night's debate bc it is onl;y in its second year. The press really missed out bc it was a terrific format.
By the way, I'm not making excuses for the press. I'm not their defender. I was just rying to tell you why I thought they weren't there. But I'm not part of the press. Bill White did have a terrific post on his own blog about that very subject just the other day. You really should check it out, and then if you think Bill White or the press is lame, tell him. But be gentle.
I know the candidates would like them to be at every debate and I know the papers tend to shy away from pols as campaigns heat up.
The issues are very important but a candidates' night or debate is actually a little like an athletic event. I'm sorry I feel that way, but I do. I think the headline was appropriate for that brief moment.
When the TV cameras are rolling, Dertinger may shock us all and knock a few out of the park. But based on last night, he needs to improve his style or his substance won't be heard.
And just so you know, I can't vot for Dent. We are philosophically different. I can't vote for Greta, who betrayed Greens in her last run and looked like she was ready to concede to anyone last night. So I support Dertinger, but he has to do better.
LVDem, I'll send you an AA book.
Rick Orloski was terrific last night! I did not know he was so frickin' funny. I loved the way he laughed at himself.
Bernie, keep the AA book. I don't consider my love of beer to be a problem. I consider it a blessing. That said, my desk is kind of wobbly so it might serve me a purpose anyway.
As far as why I will vote for Dertinger: debates mean nothing to me b/c I don't need to be convinced by a candidate to vote a certain way. I don't need somebody who is trying to sell me an argument b/c quite frankly, I can figure it out on my own through good old research. Dent is a special interest freak. Name the special interest and he's probably sold out to it, even if it conflicts his last interest. Also, the guy is terrible on the environment. Every vote this session that he cast on the environment was anti-environment. As a member of generation y, I can tell you that the environment is the single most important cause to my generation. Why is that? B/c we have to live here for another 60 years (assuming I don't get hit by a bus anytime soon). If the guy can't even muster one vote for the environment while his opponent is talking about environmental issues and global warming as a problem, that's an easy decision for me. Lastly, I hate to say this, but he's a republican and to me that is affirming a set of values that I simply can't support. Dertinger can at least support my values of freedom, equality and opportunity. Dent, when it comes down to it, supports the same party that advocates rolling back civil rights, thinks equality is silly and would sell my interests to the highest bidder. That's not just rhetoric: it's about values.
I have no problem supporting the underdog. That's part of life but I'm not going to switch my vote b/c he's an underdog.
LVDem, Very well said. I really like Charlie Dent but just can't go alomg with him philosophically.
Dertinger was a lobbyist at one time correct? Talk about specail interests.
Accodrding to a MC editorial, he was at lobbyist. I don't know any details about that, but think he was working for the trade unions. He is a third generation union member and proud of it. I advocate government reform so that makes me a "lobbyist." You advocate your bridge so that makes you a "lobbyist." I think Dertinger, if he was a lobbyist, was a lobbyist in that sense of the word.
Let's use an illogical syllogism to make the environmental posters to the blog think.
Follow the logic.
Based on ratings from environmental groups and the fact that no environmental group has endorsed him, Dent is for harming the environment.
Based on ratings from law enforcement groups and the fact that no law enforcement group has endorsed him, Dertinger is pro-crime.
We talk so much about the evils of special interest groups. But everybody ultimately has special interests.
Consider this clash of "special interests." When Congress was voting on requiring mandatory higher fuel economy standards two "special interest" groups -- labor (UAW and others) and environmentalists were diametrically opposed on the issue. Labor said, and they were absolutely right, that higher standards would cost jobs.
Environmentalists said, and they were right, that higher fuel economy standards are beneficial to the environment.
Who do you side with? Dent ultimately voted against higher fuel economy standards. A sop to Big Business? But in this case the Big Business involved employed hundreds of thousands of union members who would have had their livelihoods impacted by mandatory higher standards.
Mr. Dertinger has said he is a proud union member. How would he have voted in this situation? Would he have turned his back on union brothers and sisters to cast a vote for the enivronmental "special interests?"
If he would have voted against higher standards, would that have made him a Big Business lap dog?
It amazes and angers me that we are so quick to give some "special interests" such slavish devotion.
I guess I've known too many "environmentalists" who build their big mansion on a beautiful ridge and then suddenly want to freeze development in their community and screw the carpenters and tradesman that lose the opportunity to use their trade.
But what do I know, I'm just anonymous.
FTHillDem, LVDem may differ w/ me on this point, but I don't think Rs are all that evil. This country is bitterly divided, and when you blame an entire party for the faults of some within that party, you have a polarizing effect. It's just as bad as the constant condemnation of Dems and liberals.
So I reject your assertion that Rs, as a party, are attempting to manipulate the truth. They are also people of good will, for the most part. And nobody has all the answers, even you. That's why I like to hear from Rs on my site. They give it to me and sometimes thy're right.
You got bent out of shape because the papers didn't cover this debate, and jumped all over me when I offer a possible explanation. You also didactically declare that my coverage was biased. You also don't want people to joke around about something so important, and inform me my headline is inappropriate.
Well, I've got a newsflash for you. I was there. You weren't. You're in no position to complain about biased coverage of an event that you yourself couldn't be bothered to attend.
You at one time declared yourself my bullshit detector. I think it has backed up. I'm sensing a lot of bullshit coming from you. According to you, the future of democracy depends on this congressional race. So why didn't you haul your ass up to Pen Argyl and ask Dent some questions? Why do you attack me over the lack of news coverage when you can email a newspaper directly yourself?
To Anon 11:06,
You make some terrific points. I can't be sure, but I think you're the bastard who put me in my place about the voters' first pledge.
We are all "special interest" to a lesser or greater extent. I have a special interest in promoting accountable and open government, especially on a local level. LST has a "special interest" in preserving a LSTp bridge. I see your point.
But there are special interests and then there are SPECIAL INTERESTS, groups that become very large and powerful and let money do their talking. And that's when we get into trouble. AT&T using its dough to set up an astroturf blog to oppose net neutrality is an example.
Under our form of government, everybody gets one vote. He can piss it away or use it, but it's only one vote. We use these votes to elect people to represent us. But do they?
A powerful special interest uses its dollars to persuade legislators to do something they may not otherwise do. They also use their dollars to fool some of us into voting for their people. And then one man does not really have one vote. He's been influenced by an outfit that uses advertising to condition what he thinks.
Someone tries to stop this, and the special interest will respond it has a right under the first amendment to spread its message.And can a special interest be blamed when someone buys their message?
I think there is a lot of validity in what you say, and I have nothing against a group of like-minded individuals getting together to express their views. The problem, as always, is money.
I'll consider your points over the weekend. And your criticism of some "environmentalists" is very valid. The WP did an exposee on how some wealthy people use the Conservancy as a tax shelter and how some other wealthy people use the conservancy to buy land they can turn into exclusive luxury developments.
I guess we should be suspicious of any special interest w/ gobs of money.
Thanks very much for your provocative comment. I want to check it out.
Bernie, I agree with you that pissing awaying my vote is how I feel in this election year. Esp because some of how I am voting is not becuase I want the person I am voting for to win, but rather I don't want the person I am voting agaisnt to win. But that can only be changed with a better field of canidates.
That's why I think "None of the above" shopuld be a choice in every election. If "none" wins, the candidates on the ballot are DQed and a new election is held with new candidates.
FtHillDem, Oh I see. Gee, you just got done telling us this is a real problem. According to you, we're "on the verge of losing democracy." Sounds like a real problem to me.
And as far as having a "real job" is concerned, I had one as recently as Friday. So do most of our other local bloggers. Even LVDem. He's a wine taster.
You're a bright guy and I like your comments when you talk about issues but don't like it when you get nasty. This is about the third time you've degenerated into personal attacks on different topics. You don't persuade anyone when you act that way. And you're better than that.
I'm just a shlep w/ a blog. I'm not always right although I really try to get my facts right and will defend opinions until convinved I'm wrong. I'm a small time big mouth. I do happen to care about my community and take an active interest in what goes on around me, especially on a local level. That's just the way it's worked out for me. If you feel better about yourself by belittling me and what I do, then knock yourself out. But I don't think it really makes you feel better about yourself.
As for me, I'll keep on bloggin'.
It takes the same exact same thoughts and feelings to dispise a person for their political party as it does to dispise them for their religion.
Partyline politics are divisive and senseless.
What do you teach your children... "Don't talk to him, he's a republican."
Star-belly Sneetches are obviously better.
Don't worry, I do not expect anyone here to unlearn bad behavior instantly, but give it a try.
House of Crayons, I'm from the left side of the political spectrum but you're absolutely right. We need to stop vilifying each other. We are ALL Americans - whether we are Democrat, Republican, Green, Independent, Libertarian or whatever.
Those of us who urge immediate withdrawal from Iraq are committing treason, according to some. Others think that those who oppose immediate redeployment are co-conspirators in war crimes.
Both the left and the right are guilty. Sometimes, I'm guilty, too.
I hit pols pretty hard, but on the issues. I try hard not to get personal.
FtHillDem, Excuse me? When you start saying that you have a real job and are worried about real problems, you're belittling me, and I do know it. It's a snide personal shot. And it's about the third time you've done it now on different topics. I welcome "critical comments." But I will no longer tolerate snide personal comments from you. When you do it, I will point it our.
The necessary and logical implication of your remark is that others, i.e. moi, do not have a real job or issues. That's a snide shot. It's not your first. And I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that I have responded to your comments. I don't think Rs are all bad or that Ds are all good. I don't think my sports metaphor was inappropriate or presented any danger to democracy. And I think my coverage of a debate that you didn't attend was fair, although I'm no reporter and a reporter would have done a better job. The lack of media coverage is something you should take up with the papers, not me. But it's a good thing for Dertinger that they were not there.
I wasn't at the debate you mention but I have been to two others and Dent DID decide last minute to show up for Women Voters debate. Dertinger slaughtered Dent in both! Last night at WV's debate, Dent had to get assistance from an aide for moderator intervention! Can't Dent defend himself? He showed himself to be nothing but a sad case legislator, and this guy serves on Homeland Security Committee? LOL! What a joke! When asked if he felt Bush was a good president, Dent replied Yes. And he denies being a lapdog??? On questions of his votes he had to resort to many which were previous to his current position, you know, back when he was actually moderate? The only votes he mentioned which were current dealt with the religious extremists positions which he did vote against but not one word on how he's voted to cut Medicare, education, border patrol, troop medical, etc... nor mention of his support on votes pertaining to the Iraq war which has cost us billions EACH month.
Hands down, Dertinger won both debates I attended.
Anon, I got the impression that Dent had trouble last night so I'll take your word for it.
Scoreboard:
Dent - 1
Deringer - 2
I, too, am rooting for Rick Orloski this time around.
PS: "Law" is their grandmother's last name, which, in turn, became their middle name.
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