I'm obviously biased, but I'd give this one to Molovinsky and Thode, hands down, both on substance and style.
Fleck, who is being paid both by Allentown Mayor Edwin Pawlowski and the trade unions, came on way too strong, interrupting people and attempted to shout them down. He hysterically used the word "hysteria" nine times. At one point, as he ranted, I thought his crazy eyes would pop right out of his head.
Fleck also contradicted himself. He alternately claimed that the NIZ is a "first time piece of legislation," but later claimed that other states have NIZs.
He also contradicted the Mayor and Allentown officials. Pawlowski, in his latest missive to country bumkis, claimed there would be 240 FT jobs. An Allentown powerpoint claims 750. But Fleck talks about "thousands" of jobs being poached from New Jersey.
Fleck also claimed that Townships originally were opposed to KOZs. On what planet was that?
Here are some debate highlights.
Michael Molovinsky: "Usually in good government, you have a little bit of due diligence and consensus before you dig the hole."
"I want to start a movement to save the hole. We did very nice with Mayor Heydt's hole. We tore down Hess', we had a hole, it sat there for a couple of years, PPL came in, built the Plaza ... Let's keep Pawlowski's hole."
Steve Thode: "Comparing the NIZ with the casino is like comparing apples and hand grenades."
"All you're doing is reshuffling the deck chairs of the Titanic."
Sy Traub: "This Bill and the NIZ proposal offers the first real opportunity to make a major difference in the redevelopment of Allentown."
"Anytime there's change, there's going to be concern and angst."
Jeff Barber: "This [the displaced merchants] was a bunch of cancer, and we cut the cancer out of Allentown."
Steve Thode: "The people who lived there are going to be happy to hear you called them cancer. Which cancer was the merchants?"
Michael Molovinsky: "This was a classist, almost racist move."
Jeff Barber: "Without a healthy Allentown, you're not going to have a healthy Lehigh Valley."
Michael Molovinsky: "I'm very happy for Mr. Reilly and his children and his grandchildren, but they have to figure out a way that the rest if Allentown can benefit from this project."
Who do you think won?
Updated 9:00 AM: WFMZ-TV69 has a more neutral account of the debate. Reporter John Craven notes that Bethlehem Township Commissioners took no action on Allentown's latest settlement offer. Actually, the offer was rejected on Friday.
72 comments:
Can't wait for Geeting's insightful, deep analysis.
Molovinsky got his hand handed to him. He looked beyond a fool. Well that is why he is a blogger.... so distant from the real issues. The worst thing that Molovinsky could have done is join this debate. He was eaten up and spit up in small bites... Thode was spit up by even more.
Thank you, Fleck. I think your dumpster is calling.
Notice how much comments 2 and 4 sound alike?
Such creative writing by the pro-NIZ flacks!
Molovinsky looked like a 3rd grader surrounded by Harvard Students.
As you said, you are "obviously biased".
I thought Fleck looked like the third grader as compared to Thode, Traub or Molovinsky.
But I'm not a thuggish Union hack.
from the personal attacks i received here, and on my blog, it's apparent that the anonymous distorters know that i did very well in the debate.
The merchants as cancer comment is somewhat striking.
Jeff Barber: "This [the displaced merchants] was a bunch of cancer, and we cut the cancer out of Allentown."
What a thing to say.
Was Barber sent by city hall? What does this say?
Bernie,
Who said"we removed a cancer from the downtown"? I found that statement appalling for many reasons.
Scott Armstrong
Barber should have 1/8 the class of his father and that is a stretch. I see a career in professional wrestling for Fleck. I understand his favorite group is insane clown posse. By the way is it true father Butz is buying adopted son Antonius a chain of tanning salons? As wellfrom a good source I understand that JB has been granted a permit to carry. He plans to strap on a pair if smith & wessons and patrol the streets of Allentown on the back of his palomino Stalin he affectionately calls Pud. Pud was door prize at last years nit lits fun raiser.
@4:36 AM your hatred of Stoffa blinds you to rational thought.
Actually the Casino heist legislation was also crafted by Senator Browne R-NIZ and agreed to by Senator Boscola. Stoffa had no part in the legislation, he merely endorsed a bad idea.
Do you think, Barber knows where I can get a franchise for a Cinruss metal smything shop.
Impressions:
First, Tony Ianelli is charming and probably genial and competent in whatever it is he does, but as a debate moderator, he looked like a 99 year old lady trying to run a day care center by herself. I found the cross talking annoying and Mike Fleck comes off as a buffoon. He shouted, interupted and eventually turned me off.
Sy Traub did not have is heart in it, it appeared. He looks like a man who wants to be reasonable though. I can only assume that his sudden departure was due to the fact that he realized the debate was spinning wildly out of control.
Dr. Thode lowered himself by appearing, even though he is clearly the most qualified man on the stage, to address this issue. In a more sane program, I really would have liked to hear him.
Mike Molovinsky is what he is, an earnest guy who seems to want to provide a voice for the disaffected. He tried, but was competing with Ralph Kramden to his left.
Barber? He wins the Cole Hamels "Maybe I should not have just said exactly what's on my mind" award. Allentown identified the problem and excised it by "cutting out a cancer" affecting the city. One can only assume that he does speak for the mayor's office, since the removal of the bus route preceded the surgery. he inadvertently proved Mike Molovinsky to be correct all along.
My wife left the room right after Mr. Fleck hysterically acused everyone of "being hysterical" for the 15th time, but I watched to the end, and took an Advil.
Voice of Reason
Scott Armstrong, That was Jeff Barber. Very thoughtless of him.
I've deleted the 4:36 comment, which has nothing to do with the NIZ.
VOR, Excellent analysis.
Michael, Many of the anonymous attacks at you are probably coming from Fleck and other Allentown flunkies who are attempting to spin something that went very badly for them.
The entire show was a #FAIL
Really, Considering the numerous comments on the blogs and in the Morning Call, I'd rate it a success. It was a FAIL for King Edwin's urban growth regime.
My wife and I Tivo'd the show so we could watch it, then go back and watch it again. There was no way anyone against the NIZ could possibly state anything constructive because Fleck would beat them up and not let them talk. In my pshyc class, they taught us that humans will get argumentive and nasty when they are up against a wall. Fleck seemed to fit that bill. I would have liked to hear from Thode & Traub, they seemed like level headed people. But Fleck would not allow them to talk. Barber's statement was the stupidest thing I have ever heard and if he speaks for the mayor, I will never vote for him for anything. Molovinski....he is a blogger.. should not have been there...sorry Bernie. Our final thoughts on the show...the NIZ was onesided, set up by the unions, and Fleck will beat up anyone who doesn't like it.
I was almost embarrassed to watch that show last night, the comment Jeff Barber made about removing the cancer was way out of line. Mike Fleck is so overwhelming, and annoying, he should have been asked to leave the show. He is the perfect poster boy for the UNIONS. I like that someone called him "Ralph Kramden". Why do you keep making comments about his Dumpster?
Anyway, I think Thode and Molovinsky came prepared with facts and figures, and the others come with nothing.
"Molovinski....he is a blogger.. should not have been there...sorry Bernie."
We are inherently unreliable, eh?
"Pawlowski and his pals view Asians, Hispanics, and Blacks as cancer (a deadly disease that is to be fought lest it kill!)."
Only the poor ones. If you look at the renderings of the the new hockey arena from the city, you'll see lots of gold and glitter. But you won't see one black person.
Why would the mayor of Allentown want to be associated with this clown Mike Fleck? Seriously he is a complete embarrassment to the Unions and City of Allentown. So unprofessional on Television, he totally ruined the show with his big mouth. Imagine trying to negotiate a union contract with him? Wow, he was the one "Hysterical" the entire show.
Bernie,
They identified Mike Fleck as "Fleck Consulting" what the hell is that? Does he own a company like this? Who would want to consult with someone with such a big mouth? You would never get a word in, it would be a one sided consultation. Your thoughts B?
"Why do you keep making comments about his Dumpster?"
A few years ago, after losing his mayoral race, the Fleckster was taking some heat over signs he has all over the place in Easton. So he took a bunch of them, and chucked them in the dumpster at Auto Zone, aong with bundles of the Irregular newspaper he was supposed to deliver and a jock strap or two. Jim Deegan wrote a story about it, and I still laugh when I read it.
Fleck ended up getting charged with theft for using the Auto Zone dumpster without their permission, but he beat the rap.
Blogger Bernie O'Hare said...
"Why do you keep making comments about his Dumpster?"
A few years ago, after losing his mayoral race, the Fleckster was taking some heat over signs he has all over the place in Easton. So he took a bunch of them, and chucked them in the dumpster at Auto Zone, aong with bundles of the Irregular newspaper he was supposed to deliver and a jock strap or two. Jim Deegan wrote a story about it, and I still laugh when I read it.
Fleck ended up getting charged with theft for using the Auto Zone dumpster without their permission, but he beat the rap.
I see thanks for the insight, it makes sense to me now. This guy is a bum! At least now he is exposed for who he is. I can see why the unions would support such trash! He showed his true colors on T.V. and he can't change that now. Big mouthed Union Supporter, no facts, just big mouth bullying to get his way. Pay me now and I won't worry who pays later mentality.
Bernie - is it possible to watch the debate online?
Calling the businesspeople and renters/owners of the demolished block a "cancer" speaks volumes. If that's how Pawlowski and friends see the current inhabitants of downtown, then ALL business owners should be VERY worried. Especially coupled with the fine of $1000 imposed on 80% of all current NIZ businesses - it is looking like the NIZ is NOT good for business downtown - at least, not the existing businesses.
From WFMZ - "This was a bunch of cancer, and we cut the cancer out of Allentown, and we’re about to rebuild," said Jeff Barber with Lehigh Financial Group. "A lot of these business owners did want to improve their properties. They didn’t want to reinvest back into our cities."
Now that we have the whole quote, my question is - How many of the old businesses are being asked to come back or are they being replaced with gentrified companies?
Yes.I have a link to the debate, which you can watch online, in the body of my post.
Here's the link.
Someone said: "Molovinski....he is a blogger.. should not have been there..."
Sadly, with media that chooses to ignore issues of local interest, or comes to the table after the fact, people like Mike and Bernie do serve a purpose.
Don't shoot the mailman.
VOR
Barber was right when you consider the full context of his statement.
Can anyone on here name one local charity any of those businesses ever gave to? Not even Rite Aid or Family Dollar participated in the community in any way.
"Now that we have the whole quote, my question is - How many of the old businesses are being asked to come back or are they being replaced with gentrified companies?"
None are being asked to come back. They are being replaced with cigar bars and other bullshit to make the yuppies happy. This is gentrification, pure and simple. Ut was attempted with the relocation of bus stops on Hamilton a few years ago. When that failed, they decided to knock down an entire block and shove them under the rug.
9:18, Barber, like you, is a classist and a bigot. They served a community whose needs are otherwise not being met. Alan Jennings rails about banks coming to impoverished areas. e real about food deserts in urban areas. Yet small businesses that serve these needs - including the medicinal needs of elderly residents who have no transportation - were shoved aside for the pretty people like you.
"They identified Mike Fleck as "Fleck Consulting" what the hell is that? Does he own a company like this? Who would want to consult with someone with such a big mouth? You would never get a word in, it would be a one sided consultation. Your thoughts B?"
Fleck is a campaign consultant being paid by Pawlowski, the Mayor of reading, state re candidates, etc. he is also a consultant to the trade unions. His specialty is trolling the homeless shelters to find dubious people to walk up and down the streets, pounding on doors. It works in Allentown.
Thode is a fear mongerer. Do you think he negotiates his pay by citing the inflated maximum $$ he COULD make over the next 30 years? Another 5 minutes and he would have pulled a puppet out of his prop bag. His line that every suburban developer will go bankrupt is laughable. This guy is a professor?
Molovinski came across as likeable. But a few faults: the “save the hole” thing - PPL coming to the Hess lot was a 1-in-a-million shot that won’t ever happen again without the NIZ. That dollar store was the highest grossing in the country??
Traub seems like a good guy. Would have liked to hear more from him. Where’d he go?
Fleck – stop shouting.
Barber – meh.
I doubt any of these guys is racist. That card shouldn't be played.
Then he should not call the mostly minority merchants a cancer. Had Angle sad something like that, he'd be strung up by now.
"Molovinski....he is a blogger.. should not have been there...sorry Bernie."
actually, i fashion myself a community activist who amplifies issues with my blog. my activism predates my blog by decades
I haven't done a PALACE of SPORT article to celebrate the Chairman's spectacular $ 220.0 million dollar minor league hockey rink lately.
Right now, I'm working on a piece about McCarthyism in Switzerland.
Fleck has convinced me that he needs more attention.
Soon, Bully Boy Union Thug who does not frighten me, soon.
http://www.goironpigs.com
JUST SAY NO TO THE NIZ
Why does it matter if Mr.Molovinski is a blogger or not? I dont think the show picked people based on their professions or hobbies, but on their knowledge of this topic. As a resident of Easton's west ward, i am again embarrassed by councilman Fleck!! Let him stay in Allentown, he wont get reelcted here...
TRB
"What does it matter if Molovinsky is a blogger or not?"
Because the NIZ Cheerleaders just don't have too many legs to stand on.
Because Big Government simply should not be in the risky business of financing $ 220.0 million dollar Palaces of Sport.
JUST SAY NO TO THE NIZ
Interesting the NIZ Cheerleaders could not come up someone of their own from the world of Academia to counterbalance Dr. Stephen Thode from Lehigh University on TV ...
... so, it would appear, the best the NIZ Cheerleaders can do is take cheap shots at Mr. Molovinsky.
The lesson learned:
If you want to be taken seriously no matter what side you are on in regards to any topic:
Never appear on this show.
I disagree. Although the format does not lend itself to lengthy expositions, it does help open eyes. It revealed the animus that the urbane growth regime has towards minority merchants on Hamilton Street. It revealed that the urban growth regime is willing to shout down dissenting views. It also revealed that the dissent appears to be making the most persuasive arguments.
Isn't Fleck a documented liar? His resume once claimed he had a marketing position in mass media. Turns out he was a paperboy, and not a very good one. He also claimed a degree from Moravian. The guy fumphers through basic English and has no grasp of mathematics. Has he ever produced proof of his college degree? This is Pawlowski's people? Dumpster diving disgraced paperboy douchebags? He' s perfect. That hole is never going to be filled. But at least the cancer is gone. Too bad the cure killed the patient.
This is 8:36am. Relax everyone, I wasn't trying to say Mr. Molovinsky (sorry I spelled it wrong the first time) didn't qualify to be there. Sometimes trying to make a point on a blog doesn't come out the way you wanted when you type it. He made many good points and I like reading his blog, but I consider bloggers no different than reporters. So I was trying to state he should have covered the debate instead of being apart of it. He gave the King's jester too much ammo to yell things at him and that wasn't fair ro Mr. Molovinsky. I just watched it again online with people here at work. Did anyone notice how red Fleck's ears and neck got while he yelled at everyone? A true sign he had no facts to support his views so he got angry. And this guy represents the Mayor....wow.
"Can anyone on here name one local charity any of those businesses ever gave to? Not even Rite Aid or Family Dollar participated in the community in any way."
Since when is this a valid way to judge whether or not a business should be kicked out of a town? I thought this was a capitalist society where the customer determined the viability of a business. Bernie's right - these businesses served the needs of the downtown customer. Not our ideal version of that customer, but the actual person who lives/works downtown. Those stores had a lot of business. There are so many folks downtown who no longer have a pharmacy or a place to buy basic goods that the dollar store sold. It is ridiculous to assume an anonymous poster has any idea how charitable those business owners/workers are, and it is insulting that such a benchmark is needed to remain in business. Those were taxpaying, viable businesses who never should have been evicted by strong arm tactics in the first place. It is a sad day when the "little guy" is knocked down and called a cancer by his/her so-called city "representatives" and government.
Anon 8:36, you described the way Ron Angle handles every debate. With belligerent, back against the wall anger.
Why is Fleck any different than one of your hero's?
This Blog is more one-sided than anything Fleck, Pawlowski or any group has ever done. The little emperor won't allow a discussion unless you beat up on his enemies.
By the way lies are as good as the truth if your aim is true. Right O'Hare!
The people in cityhall are the cancer and we the people are the removal tool. This will not be a painless extraction for the ones putting palumpa out front. With all the media attention they all want there 15minutes of fame too?
Sincerly yours
Redd
INSIDE INFO:
Fleck has been offered dumpster diving exclusivity at the proposed arena. Cancerous homeless will be kept several blocks away for two hours after each event in order to permit Fleck exclusive access to all arena dumpsters. It's pay to play of the worst kind. Fleck may act retarded. But he's made a very slick deal.
I like when the reputable contractor of the same name ran ads in The Express-Times explaining that he wasn't the same Mike Fleck as the despised, lying asshole we're discussing here. He's a cancer to the name Mike Fleck!
balidgerant?
Well, Ed is bald.
But I think you meant to say belligerent.
ironpigpen - if you want to start digging into Fleck's accomplishments, be sure to give Archie Follweiler a call.
I do not understand why Fleck hates the suburbs so much? Did he forget about the natural resources (Iron and cement) that were extracted from the earth that built Bethlehem Steel, Allentown, the Panama Canal, Golden Gate Bridge, Empire State Building, etc. It is even suggested that the bricks at Independence Hall may have come from the Valley. Some of our villages are even older than Allentown. Next time you want to suggest the suburbs took from the City and gave nothing back, do a little research on Gen Harry Trexler business adventures.
If it weren't for the EIT issues, arena construction would be underway. The bill just overreached and became a distraction.
Fleck is just a Panto flunky who will be a county administrator if Panto wins.
Bernie knows,
even the gods are laughing at palumpa and crew right now. By the way what third party is responsible for the eginerring aspects. The pollions and bulkheads look good in theory or on paper to the egineers. That said what insurance company is backing this I want to move my shares?
As a sitting Easton council person, Fleck should not be sitting there and advocating for the City of Allentown. This is a conflict of interest between his loyalties to the City of Easton and his business.
"Isn't Fleck a documented liar? His resume once claimed he had a marketing position in mass media. Turns out he was a paperboy, and not a very good one. He also claimed a degree from Moravian."
He is a documented liar. When he ran for Mayor the first time, he was caught lying about his college degree and employment history. He has since been awarded a degree.
"Fleck is just a Panto flunky "
This is untrue. Fleck is a Pawlowski flunky.
"i fashion myself a community activist"
I see. I fashion myself a Chippendale.
"Was Barber sent by city hall? What does this say?"
So far as I know, Pawlowski had a direct hand in the selection of the NIZ cheerleaders.
Mr. Fleck,
The Teletubies called.
They want their tie back.
My apologies Mr. O'Hare, after watching Mr. Flecks obnoxious behavior on business matters last night, Ecks first impression was Mr. Ed's Teletubby collection had escaped from the Man Cave.
Respectfully,
Eckville Press
O'Hare the hypocrite and his merry band of NIZophobics. Your hysterical infatuation with this topic is BORING! Your hatred of anything associated with Ed Pawlowski has made you dull and predictable. Move to Allentown and run against him if he is so horrible. Then you nightmare would be over. But ours would be just beginning...
Fleck is a Pawlowski flunky. But he was a Panto flunky before that. He and Panto share exactly the same vision. Panto is able to form an ocassional complete sentence. That is the only difference between them. Go to the NorCo suburbs. Forks hates Panto for being the same kind of lapdog flak for Strausser. Panto/Fleck/Pawlowski = same thing.
"Your hysterical infatuation "
The same word that the Fleckster used 9 times during the debate. Hmmm.
Wow! Over on Geeting's blog, a poster named Trish says that she would have liked to see Fleck, "take a right shoulder upper cut to Movolinsky’s head, landing him flat on the floor, groveling and whimpering ..."
That poster is a real winner. Maybe "Trish" should run for office?
Obviously, that is the Wicked Witch of West Easton, Tricia Mezzacappa, hoping for an act of violence against MM. She's a real class act. The more she writes, the deeper her hole gets.
I thought fat ties were out thin is in, but than again trying to hide the gut of gluttony goes without saying.
Or you once again you are pretending to be Trish to make her look bad. Give it a break O'Hare, the woman is not into you. Can you blame her. You are batshit crazy.
Tricia Mezzacappa, I don't impersonate people. That is your specialty, as when you pretended you were someone named "Brenda." And really, you do a pretty good job of making yourself look bad. You don't need any help.
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