In recent days, there have been hundreds of news accounts detailing claims that Donald Trump has sought the assistance of Ukraine's President in an effort to embarrass Democratic Presidential candidate Joe Biden over the business dealings of the latter's son in that part of the world.Trump admits this, but denies offering anything in exchange for what appears to be an illegal in-kind campaign contribution from a foreign national. Many claim that Trump has finally crossed the line, while others insist that Biden and his son are no-good crooks. Trump is doing what Quintus Tullius Cicero, younger brother of the more famous Cicero, recommended 2,000 years ago, i.e. reminding the public "of what scoundrels your opponents are." But unlike Cicero, he's doing it in a way that makes him look like the scoundrel.
The one thing I can conclude about all this with absolute certainty is that Trump must worry that Biden will be the nominee of the Democratic party.
I certainly hope so.
Can we really draw any other conclusions? Not yet.
That's the problem with instant news. Both tribes are guilty of bending or even creating facts to fit their preconceived notions.
Assuming Trump actually asked Ukraine to investigate Biden in exchange for foreign aid, that fails to fit into any of the normal bribery statutes. Bribery applies to public officials, and foreign nationals are not considered public officials for purposes of US law,evenif they are the Presidents of their own country.
Also, the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act only comes into play if it relates to an intelligence activity, not some ham-handed attempt to cajole a foreign leader to help smear a political rival.
I think we need to give this some time to develop before reaching conclusions.
82 comments:
If the current understanding of the whistleblower's complaint is accurate, then bribery statutes wouldn't be the issue, campaign finance laws and the Constitution's Emoluments Clause would.
This account fails to mention that the trump administration is breaking the law in blocking the DNI from turning the complaint over to Congress...which is a rather significant detail.
4:32 exactly. Just how much legal China is Trump going to be allowed to break before the Dems throw him out of the shop? Also, just how gutless are Republicans to give him any more rope before he hangs them all?
actually, i'm fairly certain their is a specific statute addressing bribery of foreign officials. it's just early in the morning and i can't recall yet.
the foreign corrupt practices act. coffee just kicked in.
And no charges filed. Dark state??? Are you one of those loons? I thought Trump has solved every problem even if he has to line his own pockets w tax payer money to do it.
He used the power of the presidency to ask a foreign leader to interfere with our elections...again. No explicit quid pro quo is needed here.
Ok, now so Ivanka and Don Jr.
Doesn't change the fact that your idiot president routinely asks foreign leaders to interfere with US elections.
*do
It wont be long until the democratic opposition to Biden will use this, after all, Warren is the anti-corruption candidate.
Solomon is a hack and his conspiracy theory was debunked by The Intercept back in May.
Biden isn't my choice for the nom, but there is no evidence of wrong doing in his handling of affairs in the region during his vice presidency. Trump withholding aid to a desperate Ukraine while urging them to investigate his political opponent is a blatant abuse of power.
This is status quo from a corrupt administration. Would not be the first time Trump abuses his power and places his self over Country. This is an administration of special interest is determined to enrich themselves by divesting American values.
Even the Corrupt Foreign Practices Act is a stretch. The problem is that legislators have rarely considered the possibility of criminal behavior from a sitting president. This assumes the truth of all the speculation.
I am deleting all attempts to smear Biden over these long-debunked allegations. Try it somewhere else.
"This account fails to mention that the trump administration is breaking the law in blocking the DNI from turning the complaint over to Congress...which is a rather significant detail"
I do address this and even link to the lawfare story suggest the Act only covers intelligence activity. Learn how to read.
Huntress, read above. The Act almost certainly has no application to this.
Let me add here that if the evidence is that Trump actually pressured a foreign leader to investigate a political rival, and he appears to have admitted this, he should be impeached because he has violated his presidential oath and abused the power of his office, regardless whether it fits the definition of a crime. I believe this would need to happen regardless whether the Senate fails to act.
Sure, I'll give it time because there is a lot to this story we don't know.
However, my mind Is made up and Trump must go. He must be impeached first.
USA TODAY has he most balanced and fact-filled account I've read thus far.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/09/22/donald-trump-joe-biden-ukraine-whistleblower-standoff-explained/2388648001/
If you have news accounts that are balanced treatments of what has happened, please feel free to share.
I deleted two comments. The first cites no specific links and the second is clearly unbalanced, like it’s author.
The story behind Biden's son, Ukraine and Trump's claims
https://apnews.com/9d4595ba4f3140c6bb6a3473a91f4a4c
Can't get through a day without another call for impeachment. It's become meaningless white noise. Ds are 40 votes shy of impeachment in their own caucus. The Orange guy is bad and Biden's son is very dirty. None of this is news for anyone who's been paying attention before this news cycle.
Good quote from Quintus. Not many people have heard of him, although he had a successful military career and did well in the Gallic Wars. I remember something about him commanding the successful defense of a wilderness fort that was besieged by the Belgae.
Trump is a rich person because of business Biden is rich because of politics... Sometimes the truth hurts...
I'm not gonna argue whether something was going on with Biden or not BUT... All that pales to countries knowing when Jared, Ivanka, Eric or Don Jr. comes a calling there's huge implcations for them. Not to mention the president's attorney. Keep in mind four of these also work at the White House. Pretty damn serious nepotism if you ask me compared to the Hunter situation.
How about this. Neither Trump or Biden in 2020.
Kevin, Quintus was in a tough spot, and Caesar had high praise of him in his Commentaries.
Spot on, Bernie. Both tribes bend, ignore, or even create facts as needed to support their narratives.
Only one tribe is trying to convince people not to believe anything they read from professional journalists who, while not perfect, work very hard to get the facts right and be even-handed. Don't like the facts? No problem - don't believe them!
Do you mean above that you hope Biden becomes the Dem nominee? We are in agreement that Trump needs to go. Biden was the best choice in 2016. Unfortunately today his age is showing and his unscripted comments are increasingly rambling and incoherent. If the Ukraine stuff about Hunter Biden isn't real, there is almost certainly something else in Biden's past that will pierce his working-class patina and tar him as a corrupt elitist, or alienate women or people of color. His appeal will steadily diminish, just as the formerly invincible Hillary's did.
It's unfortunate that Steve Bullock isn't getting more traction.
Canary, I will support any of the Dem candidates, as bad as some of them are, over Trump.
The democrats are desperate for a way to remove Biden after coming to realized he is in decline..I feel sad for him.
This story was locked and loaded for the general election but the Trump team gets it out now because, they see what we see, and figure they won't get a chance next fall.
The only democratic candidate Trump never mentions or has made a demeaning nick name, is Tulsi Gabbard, with Gabbard Trump got nothing. Gabbard attacks Trump's Saudi tweet calls him a pimp....crickets. Trump always hits back not here, you can smell the fear, Trump himself has said, "men are better than women, but a good woman is worth ten men." You don't have to believe it just know Trump does.
Jimmy Carter has come out to say that he would have difficulty being president at age 80, clearly an attempted to inform the party just how out of touch they are with modern democrats that see radical centrism as a greater threat than republicans, including Trump.
The radicals on both sides is what opens up the space where most people live and breathe free, centrist are seen as a threat to that open space.
The curious thing about the tribes is their apoplexy at any dissent. I hated the last two POTUS candidates, but ultimately had to choose one, or throw my vote away on a third-party. So I did. Most of us did. I'd no sooner defend either one of the horrible options. Tell one side you chose against them in a lesser-of-two-evils decision and you're called everything but your name. Criticized the candidate you nonetheless voted for, and the response is the same. I want to believe there are more of my pragmatically, non-aligned team than either of the tribes. But reading these pages and social media is not encouraging. For the record: I hate everybody.
12:31PM "I hated the last two POTUS candidates, but ultimately had to choose one, or throw my vote away on a third-party."
You threw away your vote...period. Voting for someone you hate is indefensibly worse than not voting at all. Had you stayed home and not voted you'd at least have your integrity, instead you registered a hate vote. You must hate yourself for that, and now you project that hate you voted for, on everyone else.
" For the record: I hate everybody."
A fellow misanthrope. Lol.
Are there good reasons to vote for ANY Democrat just because he/she is not Trump? I can't see enough evidence to justify such a curt response.
Trump will beat any of these so called candidates by a landslide -the American people are not stupid enough to vote for people who will run the country into the ground..
Trump has disgraced the office in a way that none of the Dems running will do. He is unethical, a nonstop liar, divisive, offensive and has alienated us with our allies while cozying up to autocrats. That is why I will support the Dem nominee, regardless whom he or she may be.
Trump likes Tulsi, has offered her a job, and after the election she may be in the Trump administration.
I remember 1992, the dem field was called the 7 dwarfs, Bill Clinton showed his political savey and was able to win a 3 way race. he would have still lost in a 2 way race. but he was the founder of the democratic leadership group which moved to the center after realizing the party had moved too far left. He was a great candidate. I dont see any Bill Clinton in the present field, more like McGoverns. As much as people hate Trump, he is still set to kill them in 2020. Many know it and hope to impeach him before the election, or jolt another mitt Romney to challenge him. They are running out of time for both.
"Had you stayed home and not voted you'd at least have your integrity, instead you registered a hate vote. You must hate yourself for that, and now you project that hate you voted for, on everyone else."
That's correct. Politics is like masturbation. The urge, and subsequent self-loathing are intense. Yet, we still do it. Please note: I hate you and everything you stand for (although, we probably voted for the same candidate). I do love your spirited naivete' regarding politics, however. Go Team! Hope yours wins!
"That is why I will support the Dem nominee, regardless whom he or she may be."
See. Bernie gets it. Hatred wins. We're not electing good people and details about them are not germane. This is a team sport and only two are in contention for the title.
Nothing to do with team sports. Everything to do with the embarrassment who occupies the Oval Office.
With every ignorant accusation and claim made by Trump stating that everything/everyone (election, Nobel prize, media, etc.) is "rigged" against him, or "fake," I become more convinced he will refuse to leave office if he loses in a tight race.
The man seems more unstable and incoherent every day.
I see him creating a constitutional crises as never before seen or imagined possible by a sitting President. It makes me wonder if the Republicans who are enabling his behavior by not reigning him in now will also support him should he claim the election void and demand another, or call for an investigation into fraud.
Party over Constitution is the rally cry of the GOP. Especially since the loss of McCain.
Good grief 5:08, take a pill. The climate will make us extinct before 1/20/21, according to a couple of crossdressers I just saw twerking their dire warnings to sitting ducks. Have a scotch. Relax. We're doomed.
5:08
So denying the legitimacy of elections is a sign of being "unstable and incoherent?"
Hmmm...who else do I remember denying the results of an election?
With much respect to his military service, John McCain had a very greasy political career. Best way to ruin a good reputation is to add politics to it. They're all a bit dirty.
Yes, we can expect to have Trump for life, these elections are becoming a pain and a farce anyway.
Hey, it is rumored that Hillary is volunteering to come to the rescue of the democratic party. She is expected o start a listening campaign soon.
Bernie will vote for the democrat who ever that is. boy is Bernie stupid the democrats are anti- America I would vote for a Russian before a democrat go trump
Ah the Trumpsters are weighing in finally. Their boy committed a real head scratcher for them. Not to mention he's changed his stories today 5 times. That's what liars do fellas. The man is unfit, period. The Republicans lost to him in the primary because he's willing to say anything. He's intellectually incurious and is in this to line his own pockets and stoke his enormous ego...and boy do you Trumpsters now low.
"Bow" low
We don't have to like Trump's personality to vote for him. Voting should be in search of/or in confirmation of RESULTS. Trump's results have been outstanding on many levels. The economy, employment, military, border security, regulatory relief, trade, etc.
What other person running is most likely to match Trump's accomplishments? Go ahead, provide a name.
“Trump likes Tulsi”
Disinformation. What I expect from Trump’s acolytes. She detests him.
“We don't have to like Trump's personality to vote for him. Voting should be in search of/or in confirmation of RESULTS”
It was beyond o question of liking him. He is a disgrace to the office and to this country. His chief result has been to make his own family more wealthy. He is gutting important protections for our health, has involved us ina goofy trade war that is slowing our economy and has made us an unreliable ally while he lies nearly every time he opens his mouth. I am sick of him and his hate.
This is the first time I wish a cage match would decide the winner... I am confident Tulsi Gabbard would kick the living shit out of all the democrats.
Trump use to say Hillary doesn't have the stamina ...he can't pull that crap with Tulsi she'll choke him out with his tie and make his daughter watch.
Democrats embrace the discipline, conservatives don't own it.
Tulsi hit 3% in a qualifying poll. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-latest-iowa-poll-is-good-news-for-elizabeth-warren-and-tulsi-gabbard/
Lol, 7:38 says Trump has produced results, then just lists a bunch of general policy areas as proof. Please, go ahead and tell me what Trump has done to improve trade. Then tell a soybean farmer.
Could never vote for a babykiller, and as far as I can ascertain, the entire lot are such. Dems need another Bob Casey, Sr.
8.19 wow, tALK ABOUT HATE!
Trump personifies an underlying hate an danger in this nation. He has accomplished nothing of substance other than saying he has. Sadly, his followers see him more as an American Caesar, that an elected representative of the people. He has made it mainstream to believe fantasy and deny reality. If the truth hurts ignore it and follow the leader.
7:38 -
Trump has had tariffs on our goods reduced. He has signed new deals with several nations. Trump has re-structured our supply chain worldwide so as we are less dependent on China.
Trump has made America the biggest exporter of energy. We are no longer so dependent on other nations.
Trump has collected billions of new dollars from other nations in the form of tariffs paid TO us. He has used much of that new money to subsidize our farmers to replace their lost sales.
Need I go on?
So far, no anti-Trumper has named the one candidate opposing him who can be expected to work harder and be more effective. It's still a matter of anyone but Trump will do.
Lame.
in 2 weeks Trump accomplished more than o'bama the new democratic candidates will make this country a third world nation.
Here's the REAL PROBLEM.
Most of our Members of Congress (Democrat and Republican)are compromised and corrupt. Biggest example on the Republican side is Mitch McConnell. Democrat side, pick from Pelosi, Schumer, Nadler, etc.
We have a Uniparty of unethical people in high places. Trump is getting in the way.
Neither Democrat, nor Republican cares who becomes the next President. Career politicians just want someone they can control. A useless figurehead will do just fine.
Thus, ANYONE but Trump.
What horseshit. He's the most unethical President I've ever seen. His family is using his office to get rich,precisely what he is falsely saying Biden did.
Petercochran, you were deleted bc you were spewing nonsense. Not long ago, you texted me with complete disinformation I had to check out about a local official. It was irresponsible, and had I published it, I would be sued for libel. Now you are smearing Biden with equally bogus claims. You're a good shot and a great person, but very gullible.
"Trump has had tariffs on our goods reduced. He has signed new deals with several nations. Trump has re-structured our supply chain worldwide so as we are less dependent on China."
His trade war is devastating farmers, banks and state coffers. https://www.forbes.com/sites/mayrarodriguezvalladares/2019/08/12/trumps-trade-wars-are-hurting-midwest-farmers-banks-and-state-coffers/#6dde7bf45140
He has spent spent twice as much of our money to bail out farmers than was spent to bail out automakers.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mayrarodriguezvalladares/2019/08/12/trumps-trade-wars-are-hurting-midwest-farmers-banks-and-state-coffers/#6dde7bf45140
"Trump has made America the biggest exporter of energy. We are no longer so dependent on other nations."
Complete horseshit again, and that's according to your own Fox News. https://www.foxbusiness.com/energy/trump-says-us-is-a-net-energy-exporter-fact-check
Trump likes Tulsi, has offered her a job, and after the election she may be in the Trump administration.
Trump will ose in humiliating fashion. Hopefully Tulsi doesn't join him after the loss because it won't be long until Trump is picked up and charged for any of his numerous crimes. He was a co-conspirator in the Chohen case and will surely be held accountable for this actions.
I remember 1992, the dem field was called the 7 dwarfs, Bill Clinton showed his political savey and was able to win a 3 way race. he would have still lost in a 2 way race. but he was the founder of the democratic leadership group which moved to the center after realizing the party had moved too far left. He was a great candidate. I dont see any Bill Clinton in the present field, more like McGoverns. As much as people hate Trump, he is still set to kill them in 2020. Many know it and hope to impeach him before the election, or jolt another mitt Romney to challenge him. They are running out of time for both.
The world has changed since 1992. Time to take off the Zubaz pants, grandpa.
We don't have to like Trump's personality to vote for him. Voting should be in search of/or in confirmation of RESULTS. Trump's results have been outstanding on many levels. The economy, employment, military, border security, regulatory relief, trade, etc.
What other person running is most likely to match Trump's accomplishments? Go ahead, provide a name.
Accomplishments? He had total control of the government for 2 years and all he did was provide a tax cut to me using your paltry taxes. He was given a list of SCOTUS judges and picked the one who would defend him. Other than that, he has done nothing except pass ludicrous executive orders that will be reversed day 1 of the new President in 2021.
He is a failure and undoubtedly the worst president in American history.
Could never vote for a babykiller, and as far as I can ascertain, the entire lot are such. Dems need another Bob Casey, Sr.
Yeah, you're in the minority there. Keep your moral judgements to yourself. Let the women speak.
I deleted a pro-Trump comment leaving a gap at the end. That is the surest way to get deleted. Do not leave gaps, please.
This pro-Trumpidiot talked about the speech and praised it before it was even given.
Wrong again, Bernie. The UN speech ended about 11:15am today.
Every President over the past 60 years never gave money to Foreign Governments without asking for something in return.
And the comment came before the speech had been delivered. Trump looked as though he had been heavily sedated.
No way to verify because you deleted the post. It was submitted after the speech was given. But, that's OK. I won't imply you are an idiot!
Yes, I did notice how slowly he gave the speech. Maybe in respect for the translation time the audience needed.
So, what did you find offensive about the speech?
"Trump has collected billions of new dollars from other nations in the form of tariffs paid TO us. He has used much of that new money to subsidize our farmers to replace their lost sales."
In other words he believes in socialism. The tariffs should be used to pay off the Nation's debt. Instead he is taking money from one hand and giving it to farmers with the other hand. Trump is a socialist.
Also he is violating the constitution by sending American troops to Saudi Arabia to fight for them against Iran. We are not mercenaries. Why would American troops be put under the control of a foreign power. Those troops are in direct threat from enemies of the Saudi sheiks. The same power that funded and still funds Al Qaida. They killed thousands of American son 911. Now we fight for them.
Trump is a fraud and a disgrace. Your hatred of all things Democrat has blinded you to this dangerous, ill informed and completely incompetent man.
THe dems have just reelected Trump thank you pelosi
Wrong, he is a disgrace and the facts as they've trickled in reveal at the least that he pressured a foreign government to interfere in out election. Regardless whether the Senate agrees, he needs to be impeached for disgracing his office and violating his oath.
It's going down! This is the beginning of the end, trumpeters.
Today should be revealing. Trump say he will release transcribed conversation with the new Ukraine President. The whistle-blower is being revealed, etc.
What Pelosi did yesterday is add an official-sounding label to the process that has been going on under Nadler for several weeks. This is very preliminary stuff.
Any actual impeachment will require 2/3 vote in the Senate. Not very likely to happen no matter how Pelosi proceeds. But, sound like the whole matter will now tie thing up in Congress right up until the 2020 election.
The transcript is now released. Trump DOES ask the new Ukraine President to look into the prior matter with Joe Biden who had threatened to hold back funds from Ukraine until the Ukraine prosecutor is fired.
There is something here for BOTH Democrats and Republicans to crow about.
Democrats will say, "see, told you so." Trump will claim he just wanted to get relations with Ukraine back on a positive track. Luckily for Trump, there is no indication was trying to do a quid pro quo.
It doesn't matter if there was a quid pro quo. He admitted to explicitly telling a foreign country to harm his political rival. This is basically the entire premise of the Russia investigation boiled down into a single phone call that Trump has provided the transcript to.
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