One of my many guilty pleasures is YouTube. At this time of year, however, it gets annoying. Political ads grow like weeds, and it's often the same one, over and over. Politicos present grainy images of their opponents, who look like mob figures from the '60s. Many have also latched onto the widespread opposition to those evil data centers, which will end the world as we know it. Just a few years ago, warehouses were the enemy. Now, they're OK. It's those damn data centers. Throw in AI, and it's the apocalypse.
According to one recent poll, if polls can still be believed, anywhere from 61% to 75% of Americans oppose them. Whether reliable or not, they influence how politicians think, and this is pretty evident in the political ads. Move over, affordable housing. The backlash against server farms has become a focal point in this year's midterms.
Governor Josh Shapiro, who would like to be President Josh Shapiro, has obviously noticed those polls. The man who once embraced data centers and put them on a "fast track" for development now warns about predatory computer center developers. He's also released ads, complete with those grainy black and white images, portraying Stacy Garrity, his opponent in next year's gubernatorial gauntlet, as the wicked witch of those evil data centers.
All she needs is a broom.
Locally, they are universally unpopular in both counties. A few months ago, I attended a packed house in Lower Mount Bethel for what was supposed to be an informational meeting but nearly turned into a lynch mob. Of nearly 500 people who came, every single person who spoke was opposed to data centers.
I more recently attended a meeting in Upper Mount Bethel, although I got tired of hearing the same nonsense over and over and left after about an hour.
One of the loudest voices opposed to data centers in the slate belt is Tom Gilmour, who last year supposedly was being groomed as a Dem County Council candidate. His wife Courtney, who I'm told is a very nice lady, is the county party vice chair. At both of the meetings I attended, I heard him rail against data centers. In a recent Facebook post, he attacked Supervisors who were willing to at least consider the proposal. You know, be open-minded. He slammed Township Solicitor Ron Karasek for barely looking up from whatever notes he was taking. Gilmour is apparently unaware that the role of a municipal solicitor is to provide legal advice to Supervisors, not dictate policy. Gilmour also attacked Ron Angle, one of two data center supporters, as the "local pariah." Angle has often been willing to go against the current, and more often than not, has been proved right. But as the Good Book says, no prophet is acceptable in his own country.
Speaking of countries, there's one place outside the U.S. where data centers are A-OK. China. While the Gilmour gang is out there with pitchforks and torches at municipal meetings, China is quietly expanding its AI data center push. The Middle Kingdom is pouring $295 billion into them. I imagine that NIMBYs there are few and far in between.
China's data center expansion should worry us. Like it or not, these server farms are critical national infrastructure with (1) military and defense applications that provide the computer power to protect us; (2) provide artificial intelligence and intelligence gathering; and (3) enable us to engage in geopolitical and strategic competition with countries like China, which plans to double its data centers by 2030.
Like it or not, people like Tom Gilmour are unwitting tools of China. According to Open AI, the People's Republic of China has been engaged in covert influence to promote the narrative that data centers are raising electricity prices for average families. I by no means suggest that we would love data centers were it not for China's propaganda. Of course, there have been terrible data centers.
Pennsylvania Senator Dave McCormick, who recently was a guest on Aaron McLain's excellent School of War Podcast, said that the data center debate has moved dramatically over the past 12 months. He indicated that both China and Russia are trying to influence the debate (like they try to influence elections) because leading in AI requires energy and computing power. He also acknowledged that some of these developers have done a terrible job promoting these computer banks.
He recommends that communities consider a covenant between the developer and the community to (1) protect residents from energy rate hikes, guaranteeing that the hyperscalers will bring more energy than they use; (2) guarantee the use of closed-loop water systems; (3) guarantee tax revenue that makes it possible to reduce property taxes; (4) guarantee that local labor will be used, both to build and work at the center; and (5) a community benefit agreement. As McCormick put it, "What else are you going to do for me? He suggested things like schools, roads, bridges, etc.
When people bray about the data disasters, they neglect to mention Loudon County, Virginia. According to The New York Times,
Over the past two years, Virginia’s Loudoun County unveiled a sleek $102 million recreation center with multiple pools and hydro massage chairs. It spent $22 million to convert the estate of former President James Monroe into a park. And it opened two new schools, with another under construction.
While many communities are in fiscal crisis, Loudoun is flush. The source of its riches: data centers.
Pennsylvania's other Senator, John Fetterman, agrees with McCormick.
"AI supremacy and energy dominance underpins our national security," Fetterman said on X in reaction to an article about the artificial intelligence race between the United States and the Chinese Communist Party. "China continues to fuel and benefit from our overreaction. I reject the political pandering and hyperbole over data centers or AI doomsdaying."
I do not think any of these proposals deserve a tax break, but I do think they deserve a fair chance. That's the American way.
44 comments:
Yeah Bernie and while the people in Virginia love the money they don't like the data centers. This is about more than data centers. It's about tech bros shoving AI down our throats because they know what's best for us, while they make obscene amounts of money from it. I use the internet of course, but I don't need an AI preview every time I search. While I'm sure it will have its uses for certain areas, your average Joe was doing just fine without it. Plus, your average Joe will likely be unemployed by it, so says Bill Gates, not China.
I’m going to put my tin foil hat on. The data center boom is heavily influenced by the ultra rich and large corporations. They want to invest in these data centers to ensure they can invest in AI to run their business and no longer have to provide jobs (think McDonald’s some restaurants now have computers where you order your food, still people making the food for now). Also with the recent flock cameras they will also utilize ai. The world is changing as we know it as data centers are not new but this major push for mega centers all over is. Heck even doctors offices ask if they can record your interaction and now ai will chart it. All may not be bad with these data centers but without a doubt they are attacking rural areas hoping they give in as it will generate income. They are without a doubt needed but I only hope they find a different place to put them as land goes away we never get it back. Personally I think the riverpoint area in upper mt bethel is perfect for them if that is still the spot they are looking at, not sure what else you can do with the area besides maybe a new jail? (not the ice jail)
"When people bray about the data disasters, they neglect to mention Loudon County, Virginia. According to The New York Times..."
It's fine to bring up Virginia when discussing data centers. But just mentioning the tax revenue they're generating there paints an incomplete picture.
This is a distinction we've discussed at CCAP -- Virginia state law allows for counties and local municipalities to set a tangible personal property tax for businesses. So Loudon County is not just levying property taxes on data centers, they're taxing the value of all the computers inside the data centers. And those computers get refreshed pretty regularly, so as the value of the computers depreciates, it's soon renewed, increasing the tax value. Loudon gets over 1 billion annually from this tax. It makes up 45% of the county's total tax revenue.
In Pennsylvania, of course, municipalities are much more restricted in what taxes they can levy. Their main source of taxes is just the property itself. The value of all the hardware inside won't do anything for a Pennsylvania municipality. So it's very unlikely a county or municipality will see the same financial benefits from a data center that Loudon County, Virginia sees.
Aside from taxes: because it's a local municipal decision, I try to avoid commenting on the specifics of the UMBT and LMBT data center proposals. But I do think that every municipality in the county that has not done so should be proactively passing updated ordinances that protect their communities in terms of regulating power and water usage, noise levels, hours of peak operation, and setbacks and green space. And from a county standpoint, I can say that I will not support any tax breaks for data centers. The original MoU that UMBT was debating required the township to renew the Riverpointe 10 year LERTA, and to request the county to renew the LERTA for 10 years as well. I was strongly opposed to that and made that very clear. There's now a new version of the MoU that is silent on the LERTA, which is a good thing.
One final note from me. I respect the Gilmours for their advocacy for their community, and for the various ways they've given back to the community. They're foster parents and long-time supporters of The Children's Home of Easton. And Tom, being an angler, has a vested interest in protecting the Delaware River. But when I served on Wind Gap Borough Council, Ron Karasek was our solicitor; I thought he did an excellent job as solicitor, and I actually asked him if he'd be willing to serve as County Council solicitor (before we found our current, also-excellent solicitor). I can't speak to his service for UMBT, but I have a great of regard for him in general.
The concern with these large Data Centers is the reliance on
water consumption from local municipal drinking water authorities of between 300,000 to 5 million gallons per day for
evaporative cooling processes.
The use of thousands of packed servers generate intense heat
and unusual cooling demands.
This alone should raise eyebrows in communities. Science can’t make water, but we sure can use it.
Yes.
The Slate Belt folks are right to fight data centers. But they're fighting for the wrong reason. Data centers aren't bad. They're good and necessary. Just ask Josh Shapiro earlier this year before he flipped, as liars always do. The tech companies, like Bernie, look at red communities like they're toothless subhumans. Now, they need something from the red communities. UMBT should hold out for a LOT more dough. They'll get it because that kind of money is pocket change to the techies wo despise conservative districts. Make them pay residents' taxes, build ball fields, pick up the garbage and a hundred other things. Bernie and his snotty tech buddies should be made to pay fabulously for locating their facilities there. Stick it in and break it off. Make a better deal.
Shapiro is as two-faced and fork tongued as his puppet brooks.
We have become too stupid to be America. We are earning and deserve China.
Never believe polls or talking heads. Educate yourself and then think for yourself. (I know, just a pipe dream.)
Shapiro was for data centers before he was against them …. LOL.
I get that people are concerned about these data centers. If done correctly it could be a huge boost to a local community. We have a sea of warehouses out there with all the truck traffic and pollution, where was the push back against those? This has become so crazy that people aren’t even willing to listen to the presentation.
Yeah. Let's let China be the hub of cloud storage, cloud computing(P/SaaS, Cloud AI), web hosting, quantum computing. Let's have all the world's internet traffic route through China; all your bank transactions, online purchases, medical records, investment management, communications, phone calls, e-mail. Brilliant.
Does Angle have a financial interest in the Mt. Bethel development ?
I received the Shapiro Data Centers ad, its sleazy and intended for low IQ voters [damn...I borrowed a phrase from YOUR PRESIDENT DJT!]. As a Democrat, I may hold my nose and vote for Shapiro, but I don't like him and the optics of seeing him campaign with a guy like Bob Brooks is positively outrageous. I sure would appreciate positive/intelligent mail ads that tell me more about the actual candidate.
No
Okay..if it’s about money then let’s make weed legal and tax it and bring in millions like NJ, and other states are doing!!!
The China thing has the ring of MAGA talking point. It may be partly true and it may be partly a glib rejoinder.
Remember:
Data centers are good,
That I know,
Because Donald Trump,
Tells me so.
The administration’s hands-off policy on AI and data centers is a potential catastrophe.
Jason, I am well aware that Loudon County gets a lot of its revenue from taxing the computers themselves. But they also get revenue from property taxes, which have gone down by 30%. I see no reason why Pa. is somehow unable to adopt a similar tax. Also, in assessing these centers the value of the computers is part of the formula. But the county should get off its ass and do a re-assessment and then keep the ball rolling every year the way Lehigh does. And if the state were able to abolish the uniformity clause, it could rake in even more property tax.
Jason, you think Tom is a great guy cuz he fosters kids? Do foster parents give back or are they paid? I also heard Gilmour say at a meeting that he does negotiations with Fortune 500 companies and that the township should be using him, to negotiate with data centers. So which is it? Is he a foster parent or a heavy hitter with Fortune 500 companies? And if so, the man who posted on Facebook that no agreement of any kind is acceptable. is hardly the man who should be negotiating unless you intend to negotiate in bad faith. Also, Gilmour was giving the finger to Supervisors at a recent meeting. He appears to have impulse control problems and strikes me as a demagogue. I also dislike his personal attacks at people like Karasek, who was just doing his job. And Angle does not give a shit about being name-called, but I do. He is my friend and has been far more interested in UMBT and for far more years than Gilmour.. I have no issues with Courtney, who unlike her husband, has been civil.
Finally, while I would agree with carefully scrutinizing each proposal, I do not like the notion of being opposed to a data center simply bc it is a data center.
That's why you used closed-loops and rely on technology that don't consume 5 million gallons a day. Yes, get the water problem resolved but don't assume it is unsolvable.
The tech bros in this case happen to be two of the most respected developers in this area, Petrucci and Perrucci. Look at their work. They have a good track record.
I’m baffled by the anti-DC attitude. Where were all these folks when warehousing was the solution for rural townships? A Data Center doesn’t put hundreds of trucks on rural roads or sit empty when corporate business plans change and put hundreds out of jobs. Are data centers permanent? Probably not. But it might be advantageous to explore the possibilities.
I see. They are not looking for rural areas but areas that have access to what they need - water and power. That could be rural or urban.
Donald Trump changes his mind every 5 minutes so I would not rely on his opinion for anything. Also, a data center proposal can be good or bad, depending on its specifics. The citizenry has an obligation to check each proposal carefully and hold out for tyhe best deal possible if it is a good one, but universal condemnation or acceptance is just ignorance.
The China thing actually is a MAGA talking point, but it is also true, according to OpenSource AI. There are hearings in Congress about it right now. But I'll agree that people who oppose data centers have also been swayed by the reality that several of them have been very bad and the earlier messaging has been terrible. People need to shed their bias and look at each proposal on its own merits.
Like a blind squirrel eventually stumbling upon a nut, Bernie is correct here. How many in the Slate Belt were de-platformed, de-banked, and investigated by big tech and their friends in Biden's government? Now as tech-retarded blue areas have pre-emptively closed their communities to any thought of data centers (see Easton this week), tech wants things from red areas. Don't say no. But tell them it will cost $1 billion up front, a share of the profit, and a guarantee of assuming any increase in area electric bills, every penny. They can easily afford it. Their option is to try to get Panto and Pintabone to understand anything about data centers. Good luck. Both guys' VCR clocks are still blinking 12:00 from the day they were plugged in.
Exactly!! As I drive through Palmer twp and there are more under construction. Crazy!
I definitely do not rely on Trump’s opinion for anything.
Not the war in Ukraine, not the war in Iran, not wiping out the deficit or anything.
He routinely insults his supporters’ intelligence and they just come back for more.
Shapiro's from Philly. Whadya expect?
While I agree that if the list of enforcements McCormick suggests could be put on the data centers could actually really help out communities like they did in Virginia, the reality is that this is PA, one of the most corrupt states in the union, where promises are made but not kept. Does anyone remember when having a casino in your city was going to dramatically lower your property taxes?
The electric utilities and the agencies who rate them have said consumers can expect higher utility bills due to data centers. Shane on you for attempting to gaslight your readers.
Iceland actually is a big hub because of cheap power.
Meanwhile the Trump administration has ceded the solar industry to China.
China has fast tracked solar farms, wind mill projects and nuclear power plants. They make a lot of the cookie cutter infrastructure needed to advance their revolution. We have spent so much time hoarding money for the rich that all of our infrastructure has suffered. They got us to argue with each other while they enjoy their walled gardens.
Noise complaints from those near AI data centers are very real. They produce a lot of noise as there are few ways to cool a data center without fans. No one wants to invest in geo-thermal and evaporative cooling is environmentally expensive. It taps the local water table. Not sure if youve noticed but we seem to have a water problem throughout many parts of the United States lately.
There is a huge difference between a normal "data center" that serves you up youtube videos and this blog and an "AI data center" that uses LLMs. They are buying up all graphics cards, chips and "AI cpus" they can get their hands on. Majority of new system memory has been allocated to HDM (High Density Memory) used in these server farms. Its complex and expensive to produce where they stack high speed memory on top of itself to make it cross talk a lot faster. This has caused the prices of electronics to balloon out of control from you TV to your car to your phone as the normal memory becomes harder to source. Forget computer memory anymore. A stick of ram I bought for $45 last year is now $600. A hard drive I bought for $200 is well over $1000. Everyone is raising prices because of the costs. Graphics card manufacturers are now saying 8gb(or even 4gb) is the new 24gb as they tell consumers to just deal with less. We were on par with seeing 24 and 32gb main streamed this year or next on the next gen graphics cards. Thats all gone.
We dont have the infrastructure in place to support this. The rich have made sure of that. We have outsourced everything and are now suffering. Remember, wind mills cause cancer and solar on rooftops are ugly. Raised solar farms on fields apparently kill cows and destroy crops. Solar on lakes kills fish. Why put solar canopies in parking lots? No, they are building more natural gas power plants that is making natural gas prices go up. We cant keep doubling down on old technology and then being happy when AI data centers drive prices up for everyone. And I want to know how exactly this benefits us when they are using these models to create things like "Personalized pricing."
Also, if youve noticed they are building a lot of these on lots adjacent to power plants. Those are the sneaky bastards because PJM controls grid rates. When they can connect direct to the powerplant behind the grid we dont see any benefit to that. Everyone connected to the grid has to help pay for maintenance even if its skewed heavily against the plebs. Connecting behind the grid means they dont have to pay for ANY upgrades and can buy power direct driving power prices up as we struggle to build more infrastructure. Utilities arent allowed by law to lose money. Any infrastructure upgrade is paid for by grid consumers.
And its always those that seem to live in areas that wont be affected tend to hail these monstrosities. Not those that have to live with them.
There are so many negatives. I just want every politician that wants to support these should have to live next to one for a year.
I wish I could post links to everything that is wrong with this but it would take forever. Just use chatgpt to ask for a list of everything wrong with "AI driven data centers" as it is kinda humorous it will tell you accurately most of the things wrong with it BASED ON METRICS
It isnt "data centers" but "AI data centers" that are the problem. There is a HUGE difference between how they operate. I used to work in a data center with quiet servers humming along. Normal AC units keeping everything cool.
Not power hungry monsters using thousands of GPUs that need cooling with complex systems.
The fact they are trying to push them as the same thing is purposefully deceptive.
That's not what they said. The PUC was brought to county council even though the county has no role in data centers. What the Vice Chair said is that entities that want to develop a data center should bring in more power than they consume, and if that happens, it will not drive up rates. So as Senator McCormick observed, that should be a condition of any covenant or MOU.
As far as gaslighting goes, that is actually being done by people who have engaged in all kinds of over-the -top histrionics about data centers. The notion that no MOU at all should be considered, like Gilmour suggested, is flat out ridiculous and actually opens the door to claim unlawful exclusion.
On top of this, there is evidence from Open AI that Chaina is covertly influencing this debate. People need to know they are being duped.
Finally, I hate to see two good people I consider friends personally attacked, one for simply doing his job as a lawyer, and the other, for supporting the concept as a citizen.
Their client is big tech, they aren't building this on spec.
We know how much you love Ron Angle. Sorry, the man is arrogant and disrespectful at the very least. He has acted like a belligerent child when not given positions on boards that he thinks he deserves. You do you Bernie, but the man will turn on you if you cross him on something that he decides he should have.
Shapiro is the consummate political whore, all things to all people.
Every pitch I heard includes closed loop systems and they are going to “truck in the water” so it does not pull from the water supply. If that is the case then why do they want to build them next to a water source? The people just want to know all the answers and it seems that they are not getting them.
I love all these people that curse data centers. Then pick up their smart phones to go on AI to get ideas on how to speak about not allowing the exact thing they are using to not be built. Lol. Its great. Wait till the next democratic gets elected. They will be saying build them everywhere
Bernie, have you heard the incessant noise that Data Centers create? If no one cares about the water and electric usage and the environment, what about the hideous humming noise people would have to live with?
Yes, this is one of the several factors that need to be addressed in any data center proposal.
I like when Keegan posts on this blog because I get the honor of telling her to go to hell.
There is nothing data centers can do about it. And 50 million to the twps as an incentive is not enough to ruin people's lives who have lived there. Data centers will ruin their property values. How cruel of anyone to support this!
Who cares as long as they pay the property taxes just like the lotto money went to old people and casino money went to education All bullshit there is a lot of fraud in Pa under those programs
Kelly you are mistaken.
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