Before reacting to the Manhattan charges against Trump, I wanted to read the "Statement of Facts" accompanying the Indictment (see post below). They certainly paint him as a sleazeball. I was especially stuck by the claim that Trump ordered his attorney, convicted felon Michael Cohen, to delay payments to Stormy Daniels so that he could avoid paying her at all if he won the election. I was at the same time appalled at the way Trump, like a Mafia bnss, expected Cohen to bite the bullet for him. Having said that, the case is incredibly weak.
I already had a poor opinion of Trump. The issue is not whether he's a nice guy, but whether he committed any crimes. Though the indictment alleges 34 counts, we're really just dealing with hush money paid to the National Enquirer and Stormy Daniels. The DA overcharged, which is typical of most prosecutors who tend to slice the salami thin, as Alan Dershowitz says. It's still only one salami.
Without question, Trump made hush money payments, which are by themselves legal. Business records are certainly describe the payments as legal fees instead of hush money payments. But are they really false? Cohen's negotiations leading up to these hush money payments certainly could be characterized as legal work. And even if business records were falsified, do we know that Trump is responsible for these false entries?
Assuming these are falsified business records, and that Trump knew all about it, is there evidence that Trump acted to cover up another crime? I really have my doubts. I am aware that Cohen pleaded to campaign finance law violations, but the feds refused to prosecute Trump under the same set of facts, even after he left office.
Interestingly, DA Alvin Bragg fails to identify the crime Trump was attempting to hide.
Could it be an illegal campaign contribution? A violation of state election laws? Sure, but equally plausible is that Trump made these payments to protect his wife, his minor son and his brand.
There is some question in my mind whether the facts uttered even amount to a prima facie case.
In addition to all of these problems, we have problems with the believability of Michael Cohen as well as a statute of limitations that may have expired.
Putting partisanship aside and trying to look at this as objectively as possible, my conclusion is that this indictment is a political prosecution.
The only thing going against Trump is Trump himself. Last night, he gave a rambling speech in which he tried to minimize much more serious investigations being pursued in Georgia (Trump wanted the Secy of State to "find" the votes he needed to win); New York (inflating the value of business assets to defraud banks); and DOJ (obstruction in the retrieval of confidential documents and January 6 insurrection). After listening to his smears, there is no doubt in my mind that the Manhattan charges are correct. But just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
This is one Manhattan project should be dropped.
74 comments:
Did Dershowitz have his underwear on when he made the salami reference ? I think intentionally Bragg left out the 8 ball, he's not stupid like Trump thinks. I think Weiselburg will flip to avoid getting serious time in October. I also think it's more than one slice. They might bundle the checks , but the conspiracy and tax stuff is separate. Lastly if I did this type of stuff I'd be in jail by now.
Two years of Biden's "Amerika" will surely turn the most solid Anti-Trumper into a damn near Trumpster. Make America Great Again. Yet Again Trump / DeSantis 2024....
A couple things, random thoughts.
First, if anyone thinks any one lawyer should be trusted to be the definitive voice on what the law is, should be dissuaded of that notion. Listening to all these different talking head lawyers was a hoot, they were all over the place.
Second, partisan democrats already have Trump in chains in a cell. This has to be the weakest ass charges. In fact, one could argue that Bragg is a Manchurian DA, designed to help Trump get nominated. Hopefully, the Georgia case is stronger because if it is this weak, the only hope the anti-Trump forces have is the Feds.
It is obvious to any objective person that this is a political persecution to influence the 2024 election. It is likely being orchestrated by the white house. It is the pattern of the Obama political operatives to drive out competition.
I doubt that the charges will be dropped. I also doubt that Trump can get a fair trial in Manhattan. I would not assume that he will be acquitted. This will fester on through the courts until the election.
There is no doubt that if the destruction of America is the result of their quest for unlimited political power, it will not be an obstacle to the agenda.
I will consider yesterday as the day democracy in America died.
Trump’s remarks last night were accurate and appropriate. Looking back on his day, it is amazing to me how he keeps his strength and conviction. That speech will long be remembered for its courageous defense against damages continuing to be made against our country by present policies of this Democrat Party leadership.
This has brought me back to Trump. I can't vote for him fast enough. I was a DeSantis leaner to bring sanity to things. No more. Trump is back and the indictment did it. $8 million raised in a week. The guy is a force of nature. He's the most consequential POTUS in the modern era. He owns the narrative. The media can't get enough of him because he's so consequential and magnetic. I hear what they say and see what they write. Then I see what Trump has done in the last week. I want him back.
Using the argument that trump paid hush money to avoid embarrassing his wife and son is undercut by him wanting to stiff paying out if he won the election.
AMI(pecker) baulked at the original plan as they felt it opened them up to a campaign violation charge--Pecker wanted to help trump yet he would not tell trump why he could not go along?
That would mean trump did not care if he violated the law.
Lastly trump could not help himself he structured the scheme so he could use the money paid as a tax deduction.
That in itself can sink him, unless porn star payments are a write off these days.
Stormy has to pay all that money back hahahahahahahaha.
1245 wants to go back to double digit unemployment and when our president shared love letters with dictators. Birds of a feather write love letters together. Last evening's "Not indicted, Not invited" party was quite revealing.
Personally, my worst years employed have been under trump. My best years are the last two. I have seen wages increase for myself and all my staff. We have a great backlog of work and hired nearly a dozen new employees in the last year.
The slime ball is getting everything he deserves. 60% of the people think he should be prosecuted. Thank goodness people like you are in the minority.
Should a president who decries “election integrity” have to follow the law as it pertains to an “October surprise”? The answer is “yes”. But if he gets a bunch of disbarred lawyers on the jury, might he get off? Also, yes. Did Stormy get him off and are his pubes orange? We hope to find out.
no question the left wing democrats are out to destroy America as we know it. Look at the border, look at our cities ,look at our military. They hate America and Trump the most because they fear him. Trump is not one of those politicians we have that worthless to us He is the man to keep the left from destroying our country. The hate trump judge tried to tell Trump what he can say but he never said nothing to fat Bragg. Fatso leaked info but nothing was said to him. The left is the most hateful. group in American History and that includes the KKK.
That you think any of this has anything to do with laws or the strength of a legal case is simply adorable. I say let it go forward at full steam. Republicans will certainly find a friendly grand jury in Lower Buttram County Alabama to indict Biden on ham sandwich charges that have traditionally been ignored for politicians. Then, it's game on. I hate everybody from both putrid parties and love the idea of hauling our leaders into court. We should embrace our true banana republic nature. And we're about to for the next few years. We'll survive. Japan and Israel and the UK have gone there and their democracies are just fine.
You’re right Bernie, he shouldn’t go to jail because of hush money.
He should be hung for inciting a resurrection on January 6, 2021.
12:45 make you choke on your the vomitourious words of tRump and DeSatan. Those two are blaming other son the destruction of America while they themselves are a major cause but inciting small minded easily manipulated and generally mentally challenged individuals. They prey on the weak like yourself.
This is and has been the weakest of the legal issues facing Trump, and I think this is really just a test flight for the others to come.
They got Capone on taxes, but it was really for much more than that...
Lock him up
But MSNBC and CNN have been telling me "The walls are closing in" So they aren't ??
@12:45 - You should really use the screen name "Charlie Brown" since you continuously express optimism and surety that things will be different.
The state of Wisconsin flipped their Supreme Court last night from GOP to Dem majority. The GOP candidate was a full blown MAGA die hard -he lost by 10% points. In 2016 when Trump was elected, the GOP had a 5-2 majority.
MAGA & Trump work really really well with a select audience in select areas of the country, but it is a losing electoral strategy in the suburbs and cities, which is where most of the voters live.
Complaining non stop about Biden and bemoaning that America is circling the drain is not going to be enough of a reason for voters to change their minds about what Republicans can do.
Real Americans and real members of the GOP (not the maga cult puppets) know that trump is not good for the USA. Even if he is not convicted of anything, he will still be an egotistical child. He is what he is, and he cannot change.
Even if he is not convicted and then elected the dems will still do everything they can to continuedly harass his administration. We Americans, on both sides don't need all these distractions which take away from running and doing what is right for the nation.
I generally stay away from websites that feature a comment section that permits too much name-calling, but do regularly visit about a dozen sites where comments obviously come from true critical thinkers. Comment sections with writers who provide evidence to document what they believe to true. There is much to be learned in those places in reading mature thoughts from differing points of view.
It’s very early in understanding the full impact of what we witnessed yesterday. However, without question, the anti-Trumper group has damaged itself by this latest stunt. Trump was NOT tarnished very much, and is obviously gaining significant support in new places.
Yes, these charges should be dropped, and quickly if that’s possible. This is like a firecracker that explodes still in the hands of the one who lit the fuse. Self-inflicted pain.
Alvin Bragg just made the biggest mistake of his life, in my opinion.
The left wing democrats fear Trump All their witch hunts should stop because everyone is flawed. The left wing is out to destroy America and under Biden they are well on their way to doing just that.
Time will prove you to be wrong.
Trumps main crime was resorting to boring missionary positioning with Ms Clifford, a true ALPHA would have requested some reverse cowgirl or employed the pile driver his lack of creativity in coitus mirrors a simpleton track record in governance
The payment by Cohen clearly was to hush Stormy Daniels. There's a friggin' NDA! And that's a personal expense that they intended to pass off on the Trump Organization tax return as a business expense. Cohen's reimbursement was to go on his return as income.
That's tax fraud. The victim is other New York taxpayers.
Everything you pointed out is why the Feds refused to pursue the case...
The payment was made just a couple of weeks before the election. And why were the books cooked--because Melania conducts her own audit or something?
A jury will get it.
Lock him up
The DA never stated what the underlying crime was to turn the misdemeanor into a felony (34 time over).
I don’t see how that’s legal, but it certainly isn’t fair.
How can someone properly defend themselves without being told what crime they’ve committed?
"And that's a personal expense that they intended to pass off on the Trump Organization tax return as a business expense."
The indictment fails to identify tax fraud or illegal campaign contributions as what is being hidden. It is extremely vague, which is fundamentally unfair. All defendants should know what they're charged with. On top of that, the argument can be made that this is very much a business expense. The Trump brand is essentially what makes his products valuable, not the product itself. So things that diminish his reputation diminish the business.
"It is extremely vague, which is fundamentally unfair. All defendants should know what they're charged with. On top of that, the argument can be made that this is very much a business expense."
Absolutely. Hillary paid for the disproven Steele dossier with campaign funds, calling the payment "legal expenses." That claim was determined to be false. She paid a $130K fine. An argument was made that the fake dossier was indeed a campaign expenditure - albeit a dirty tricks expenditure. While Hillary's offense is arguably worse than Trump's, I don't recall her indictment for falsifying her campaign finance records in the way which was determined. But I try not to watch too much news these days. I may have simply missed it.
Ken Starr spent 5 years on a land deal where the Clinton's lost money and he found a blue dress.
I still can’t understand how so many here can’t bring themselves to admit the many ways our nation is being weakened. Government waste and corruption, are issues that will NOT be improved without the managers causing this mess are replaced. It will only continue or worsen.
A brand new federal administration, one with different values and political philosophy is sorely needed. For me, NOW is the time and TRUMP is the man. Trump is the best qualified, most capable person running for President to fix what’s wrong. Of course, if you see no decline in this nation, nothing said will change your mind.
The Trump brand is essentially what makes his products valuable, not the product itself. So things that diminish his reputation diminish the business.
Now that's a weak argument. Trump's reputation was diminished long before his cult of right-wing nuts found their Fuhrer.
"The indictment fails to identify tax fraud or illegal campaign contributions as what is being hidden. It is extremely vague, which is fundamentally unfair. All defendants should know what they're charged with. On top of that, the argument can be made that this is very much a business expense. The Trump brand is essentially what makes his products valuable, not the product itself. So things that diminish his reputation diminish the business."
The indictment doesn't have to include that information, so learn to live with that. I understand it'll be provided in a bill of particulars.
Sure, you can argue that the hush money is a business expense, but it's a very weak argument. The IRS sure wouldn't buy it. And two weeks before the election, it's about THE ELECTION. Even the Trump DOJ agreed with that, as per the Cohen prosecution. And the plot to mischaracterize Cohen's reimbursement as income certainly doesn't fly either.
Trump is toast.
Personally, my worst years employed have been under trump. My best years are the last two. I have seen wages increase for myself and all my staff. We have a great backlog of work and hired nearly a dozen new employees in the last year.
Your wages might have increased but unless you got a 7-8% raise you are still losing money due to record inflation. Also real wages are down per the BLS below link. You probably have a backlog of work because of the supply chain issues and Mayor Pete/Biden have done nothing to fix it. Look at baby formula. Lastly you probably hired a dozen employees but need two dozen and can't because nobody wants to work.
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm#:~:text=Real%20average%20hourly%20earnings%20decreased,weekly%20earnings%20over%20this%20period.
The Manhattan DA's office eats criminals alive on business fraud cases. The details of the "other" alleged crimes presumably will be found in the grand jury transcripts, which will be provided to Trump's lawyers within 45 days.
Don't worry, all the fuss about the indictment will die down once the next two or three come in. And that's not even considering the civil cases.
"The indictment doesn't have to include that information, so learn to live with that. I understand it'll be provided in a bill of particulars."
An indictment, standing by itself, must recite the elements of the offense violated. This one fails to do that, and for that reason alone, should be dismissed. An indictment is in essence a constitutional guarantee that nobody can go to trial without knowing why.
I dislike Trump, but this is pretty much an outrage to anyone who believes in justice.
"Personally, my worst years employed have been under trump. My best years are the last two. I have seen wages increase for myself and all my staff. We have a great backlog of work and hired nearly a dozen new employees in the last year."
We don't decide to indict or not indict on the basis of our bottom lines. We needto look at the law.
I think Trump should go on the stand and continue to deny that there was a payoff.
And then he can explain all those checks that he signed.
I dislike Trump, but this is pretty much an outrage to anyone who believes in justice.
Then it's not an outrage for T****.
Ohare, If you believe in our justice system, then let the jury decide on the evidence and save your "outrage" for somebody who deserves your sympathy.
"An indictment, standing by itself, must recite the elements of the offense violated. This one fails to do that, and for that reason alone, should be dismissed. An indictment is in essence a constitutional guarantee that nobody can go to trial without knowing why.
I dislike Trump, but this is pretty much an outrage to anyone who believes in justice."
The elements of the offense ARE stated, but that doesn't mean it has to specify the "other" crime in question. I'm sure this will be raised, and then you'll see.
Hush money payments to anyone for any reason are not only LEGAL, but happen every day all over this nation. GEEZ!
"Hush money payments to anyone for any reason are not only LEGAL, but happen every day all over this nation. GEEZ!"
That's not true, but he's not charged with that. Rather, he falsified business records in order to hide the payment.
In New York, the crime called ‘Intent to Defraud’ only requires that it BELIEVES you were planning to commit a crime but, get this …
New York does NOT require that you ever did that crime, only that they thought you would do so! Amazing.
As weak, flimsy, and dastardly this whole thing is, I believe Trump’s greatest risk of conviction will be in some violation of New York law and its ridiculous interpretation.
Another legal observer wrote the purpose of this sorry episode was mostly to go through the indictment process and the circus that went down yesterday. Getting a conviction later the was not really the priority but, of course, would be a huge bonus.
So if i shoplift a fridge from home depot does the indictment have to say what brand and what color or does it say "retail theft".
The NY D.A met the standards for an indictment.
trump has lawyers and they might have to defend multiple violations of the law.
trump is on the hook for any of the scenarios the law covers
"Trump brand is essentially what makes his products valuable, not the product itself"
so therefore any CEO can claim a tax deduction for a lawyer to handle a personal payoff?
Guess being an CEO has quite a lot of perks.
All they gotta do is claim they are special.
The sad part is trump could not resist taking a tax deduction and was arrogant enough to think he could get away with it.
He could have avoided this by simply biting the bullet and paying the tab.
I must have missed that. The one I saw was that of a raving lunatic. Playing free association.
Boh 133. You are correct. I was nearly responding those referencing the state of our economy, then and now.
It is amazing attorneys and accountants will place their careers on the line without any direction and simply out of good will. If it wasn't a crime, why did Cohen serve time? Trump charity and trump Univ dissolved over questionable business practice. There seems to be a pattern of bending ethics. However, I do think the GA shakedown was more serious and a stronger case.
When one decides to do this it is inconceivable to many of us how he didn't include the alleged crime especially with a former president and considering the nations situation today. Whether he could is obviously not the question it's how sick that he didn't include all of his allegations. Have a little respect....for a former president and the citizens of this country. It's a disgrace
Thank goodness we don’t convict by public opinion polls!
Politicians and the deep state will do this country in--in the not too distant future.
No, it need not be precise about all the details, but must precisely describe what law was broken. It must tell you what law you broke. If it fails to do that, it is unconstitutional. The DA failed.
Thanks Bernie for looking at this factually
"No, it need not be precise about all the details, but must precisely describe what law was broken. It must tell you what law you broke. If it fails to do that, it is unconstitutional. The DA failed."
The indictment states that the charged offense is making a fraudulent business record to further another intended crime. There could have been more than one such intended crime. The DA will show his hand when he has to.
Bernie you know more of the law than i do
for what it is worth
https://www.justsecurity.org/85831/the-broad-scope-of-intent-to-defraud-in-the-new-york-crime-of-falsifying-business-records/
people v norman may apply?
and there was "for example, the 2017 indictment of Richard Brega for falsification of business records in creating a scheme of covert payments to benefit a political campaign."
Didn't this happen like about 7 years ago and in another state? So how is this under NY State law jurisdiction? How is this even in the limitations of time that has expired?
Interested to know your background considering many grammar errors. Not being rude but you say the D.A. met the standards for an indictment. 99.9% of lawyers from all political sides see it differently.
I respectfully suggest everyone wait until the trial to decide if the case should have been brought. The DA appears to have carefully crafted the indictment to not give away too much to the defense prior to trial. This is not a race.
Alan Dershowitz, a lifelong liberal Democrat has been speaking openly about this indictment.
I would suggest everyone, regardless of politics or opinion of Trump, search out and pay attention to his commentary.
why did Cohen serve time?
Bernie you can correct me if I am wrong but it was due to taxi medallions in NYC. Trump has nothing to do with Cohen and taxi medallions. Wonder why you don't know this because I am sure MSNBC/CNN should have reported on this
"Didn't this happen like about 7 years ago and in another state? So how is this under NY State law jurisdiction? How is this even in the limitations of time that has expired?"
Apparently it's got to do with Trump having moved out of the state. But the fraud was committed in NY.
I think you may be out of your lane here. Are you familiar with all the nuances of New York State law?
I wonder. If this was president Biden how would the Democrats feel about not having all the information presented on indictment. Just a thought
There is such a lack of decency and respect in this country. Even the response to the First Lady words at the basketball championship. It amazes me how people treat even our First Lady. This is again part of what's wrong in our country.
"I think you may be out of your lane here. Are you familiar with all the nuances of New York State law?"
I am not. But NY, last time I checked, is part of the US. The 6th Amendment provides, "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right ... to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation ... ." It must apprise him of the crime charged with such reasonable certainty that he can make his defense and protect himself after judgment against another prosecution on the same charge. This indictment fails on that basis alone.
That's why he represented him in his impeachment
I dont understand what is missing. Also I'm not a lawyer. However this sites the actual laws he is being charged with . Another point is he was asked if he wanted the indictment read to him and he declined.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2023/03/20/read-the-trump-indictment-document-00087925
As the link below shows, the actual laws broken
3:30 -3;39, Incorrect. That link only refers to one of the laws broken. The indictment and statement of facts also claims that Trump was committing this crime opf falsified reports to cover up another crime? What crime? Violation of federal campaign finance laws, over which only feds have authority? Violation of tax law? Violation od state election law? Extortion by Stormy Daniels, in which he is the victim? Which is it? Let's say he goes to trial and the NY DA claims that he was covering up federal campaign finance laws and that the court allows it to go to trial on that basis even though the state is pre-empted by the feds on that issue. Then let's say Trump is acquitted. Under your theory, Bragg could turn around and indict Trump again opn the very same language and argue at trial that Trump was covering up the extortion by Stormy Daniels. This is why the Constitution requires that a Defendant know what specific law he has been charged with violating, including the crime he supposedly covered up.
trump is being charged with all the various related crimes (campaign, taxes, intent)that can raise the charge to a felony. The DA only has to prove one of those items.
trump's attorneys can demand a bill of particulars and the DA can give him a list of all of those. Otherwise trump could demand a reading of the indictment and that would take three days.
Somehow the judge might think that is extensive.
Also trump's attorney made no objection to the judge at the time.
Why would he stay silent if he had a Constitutional objection?
trump payed upfront this time to attract high caliber lawyers--seems odd that they would miss something that could delay trump's day of reckoning.
Maybe the should consult with Bernie.
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