These days, only 11% of the US workforce belongs to a labor union. That's down from 20% in 1983. But a Gallup poll released yesterday reveals that 61% of Americans now view unions favorably. That's the highest it's been since 2003. The all-time high was 75% in 1953 and 1957.
Richard Trumka, President of the AFL-CIO, said yesterday that it's difficult to work with the Trump administration because they are either racists or Wall Streeters.
Authoritarian Donald Trump is reportedly considering restrictions similar to what exists in Wisconsin, which that will prevent federal workers from organizing. But auto union worker in the Midwest helped elect him.
Today's one-liner: "The shortest way to the distinguishing excellence of any writer is through his hostile critics." Richard LeGallienne
Local Government TV
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Thursday, August 31, 2017
77 comments:
You own views are appreciated, especially if they differ from mine. But remember, commenting is a privilege, not a right. I will delete personal attacks or off-topic remarks at my discretion. Comments that play into the tribalism that has consumed this nation will be declined. So will comments alleging voter fraud unless backed up by concrete evidence. If you attack someone personally, I expect you to identify yourself. I will delete criticisms of my comment policy, vulgarities, cut-and-paste jobs from other sources and any suggestion of violence towards anyone. I will also delete sweeping generalizations about mainstream parties or ideologies, i.e. identity politics. My decisions on these matters are made on a case by case basis, and may be affected by my mood that day, my access to the blog at the time the comment was made or other information that isn’t readily apparent.
Do you not believe the unions destroyed America?
ReplyDeleteWithout unions, you'd be wiping your ass in a field somewhere.
ReplyDeleteLabor unions in the private sector have market restraints, If they become excessive their company goes out of business and they loose their job. In the public sector there are no such restraints, they just keep raising taxes and slowly gut the taxpayers. The teachers use the kids as hostages, there is no competition, the pensions are excessive and have no relation to the market in the private sector. There should be no public sector unions.
ReplyDeletePrivate sector and public sector unions are not the same thing; not even close. An SEIU gang is using the TX hurricane to raise money for themselves. No private sector union would do something so evil. Big difference between the two.
ReplyDeleteEvery working person in this country needs to be in a union, all the wealth is in the top 1%, how do you think that happened? Look at the number of union members decrease and real earnings for working people declining since 1979
ReplyDeleteAnd stop kidding yourself we are all working people on this blog, every last one of us
5.50
ReplyDeleteactually there is plenty of market forces affecting the example of teachers.
if you want good teachers is will cost money.
good teachers are worth the cost.
if a teacher can go to a different school and make more money-- why not?
also if you have someone with a master's or doctorate with 25 years in a private company they will most likely make more money than the average teacher with the same credentials.
Irony is that private sector employees ,both unionized and not , are being screwed by the bloated public sector and it's untenable pension obligations. The pols answer is to raise taxes not cut the fat. My small biz experience at the moment is that the beauracracy is worse since trumpy got elected.
ReplyDelete6.12
ReplyDeletetry reading the page listed.
the claim by the biased "free beacon" is quite a stretch.
https://act.myngp.com/Forms/-3833118145683060992
"We will work to ensure that Harvey's most vulnerable victims have access to critical services from first response and basic needs to healthcare, housing and transportation.
Together we will organize and advocate for our devastated communities, shining a spotlight on inequalities that emerge in the restoration of lives, livelihoods, and homes, amplifying the needs of hard-hit communities, and providing legal assistance for residents wrongfully denied government support."
6.54
ReplyDeletetry
http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/pennsylvania/mc-pa-state-budget-deficit-wolf-0502-20170502-story.html
"The state's current fiscal woes also can be partly traced to the 1990s. That's when the economy was booming and the state and school districts stopped paying the employer share of government employees' pensions. Then the Legislature handed out pension bonuses and the country experienced three recessions — the biggest after a housing market collapse."
It is Trump's fault. Bernie everything is his fault. When will you take the blinders off and see how this country is finally turning around. Talk to the people who invest their money their time to have a piece of the American Pie. Unions are the number one reason we are in the mess we are in. Concerning school teachers - if you think you can make more money elsewhere, go for it. I know many many teachers, and they are teachers because they typically don't have what it takes to be in business for themselves. My job is not 7-5, or 9-3 like teachers but is 24/7. Penna and this country is in a mess because of unions and the huge burden of pensions. Pensions are strangling the state and local government. Our schools have a huge pension payments that grow exponentially every year. And who do I blame, well if I am like you only one and just one person TRUMP. Give it a break and do something worthwhile in your life.
ReplyDeleteTurning around? Toward an abyss.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAuthoritarian Donald Trump is destroying this democracy. He is ripping this country apart. He is also taking credit for policies put in place before he was elected.
ReplyDelete8:24, This blog does not exist for you to anonymously insult other people. Form your own "I love Donald Trump" blog for that, and you can post your hatred for others there.
ReplyDeleteIn government, unions are dominant. No so in the private sector.
ReplyDeleteTrump is suddenly a racist, yet he was never considered to be that before he ran for president. Lies and garbage, constantly perpetuated through the union bosses, and somehow they make things better for us all?
ReplyDeleteHere are 13 examples of Authoritarian Donald Trump's racism.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83
Unions are needed to protect the rights of workers. That said, I also seen Unions that can destroy worker morale by protecting workers who work the system. I've seen Union protect workers fail to show up to work on time, come in late, take extensive lunch breaks, lie about required jobs being completed, and the employer needed two years of daily recordkeeping to have the employee removed from the job. I've seen Union's protect workers who are injured at home and claimed it occurred on the job. Then again, I've seen Unions protect workers who were injured on the job and the employer attempts to reject the claim. With the right people, in these positions in both the Union's and Company Management we should be able to find common ground for both sides.
ReplyDeleteAs per the NLRA, unions are obligated to represent ALL members in the bargaining unit, including fair share.
DeleteRichard Trumka, President of the AFL-CIO, said yesterday that it's difficult to work with the Trump administration because they are either racists or Wall Streeters. Keep spreading your hate for Trump.
ReplyDelete"Richard Trumka, President of the AFL-CIO, said yesterday that it's difficult to work with the Trump administration because they are either racists or Wall Streeters. Keep spreading your hate for Trump."
ReplyDeleteThat's what Trumka said. We have not reached the point yet where dissidents are silenced, but I know you and Authoritarian Donald Trump are working on it. What size brown shirt have you ordered?
I think there is a distinction to be made between Americans who support unions (most of them, myself included) and Americans who support workers being forced to join them (I would think far fewer).
ReplyDeleteAnd making a special case of government workers unionizing is a legitimate concern. Their "dues" are tax dollars, and are, in turn, used to lobby the very legislators and regulators overseeing unions. That's a clear conflict, and taxpayers deserve to have it handled very carefully.
Unions are not unlike any other service: if they provide good value, they shouldn't have a hard time convincing workers to join; if they're not, they don't deserve their membership -- and certainly not forced membership.
Why can't we just have good old American freedom of choice?
Why do teachers need unions ? They aren't plumbers or bricklayers.
ReplyDelete@12:22
ReplyDeleteOur Education Professionals should be able to join the NEA if they like (just like Doctors can join the AMA, lawyers the ABA, etc), but it really is an insult to teachers' status as learned professionals to rob them of the Dignity of Choice.
Let's treat them like the professionals they truly are and let them make an informed decision for themselves -- as they, of course, are more than capable of doing.
Tell me Bernie what have you done to contribute to this society. You contribute nothing Never have never will. You are a taker. Take take take.
ReplyDeleteLehigh Valley Schools are now lowering the grade scores so that less students fail and more students are less ready for the real world or college.
ReplyDelete12:50. I suppose rephrasing of the question is why does the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania allow public schools to be closed union shops and allow union members to strike?
ReplyDeleteThese are supposedly "professionals", not teamster truck drivers.
1:09, sorry for the delay. Was checking to see if my free cheese is here.
ReplyDeleteBernie,
DeleteI hope your cheese didn't fall into the hands of fed ed, because it was surely gone when you went for it?
@1:35
ReplyDeleteYou really can't blame ASD (teachers or administration for that). ASD is 100% free lunch. With that level of poverty (and the dysfunction and anti-social behavior so much of the dependent class brings with it), it's a wonder ASD can function at all. We should be thanking our teachers and administrators for their herculean efforts under the circumstances.
@12:50
ReplyDeleteRight-to-Work is the perfect solution. Everyone should have the right to strike, but no one should have the right to force another American to join their organization or to skim off the top of their paycheck with forced "dues."
Then they should be exempt from the higher wages, benefits and working conditions bargained on their behalf. Freeloading comes in many sizes. This will also cause morale issues that most competent managers would want to avoid, but as a union supporter, you already know this.
DeleteMother Jones
Government workers are not private sector employees. They work for the people, not for a company owner. Even Franklin Roosevelt thought they had no right to strike
ReplyDeleteThe basic problem with government workers striking is that the administrators of the school district (in this case, but any other government agency), are either voted into office or appointed to office. They serve for limited periods of time and then move on to other things. When demands are made from them by Union Reps and the workers threaten to strike, their instinct is to just give into the strikers and pass the cost of the settlement on to the people. They have no stake in the game as they don't own the school district nor have a vested interest to keep costs down. It's simply a feed bag for the union to take take take.
ReplyDeleteYou are making the assumption that most unionized auto workers care about whether or not postal workers can be unionized. Their primary concern is their own jobs.
ReplyDeleteBernie, the corporate oligarchy is already in control. We have working people who demand employees that make a decent living be torn down as opposed to working to get living wages back into the private sector. People are now defending getting no pension, no benefits and no prevailing wage to live on.
ReplyDeleteWe are tearing each other apart over the crumbs while the US has the most billionaires in the world.
I'm proud to live in a country where workers are free to organize. If you don't like it, move to Burma or China. That being said, public sector workers should not be able to organize and bargain. They get to elect their contract negotiating counterparts and already have civil service protections. They essentially amount to a bought and paid for Democratic voting bloc. The government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always rely upon the support of Paul. Government workers are Paul. They've bastardized the union movement that was fought for with sweat and blood. While private sector membership has declined, public sector has flourished. Hell, Bush increased the federal unionized workforce by 11% after 9/11 in a horse trade for the Patriot Act. TSA workers did nothing wrong on 9/11 and didn't require a union to add to the kabuki theater that is today's airport security. Democrats don't give a shit about private union members. They've tried at every turn to shut down industries where unions used to flourish, like mining and energy production. Unions marched against Democrats in Harrisburg two years ago when higher taxes on gas extraction were being considered. Dems don't need the shrinking pool of private union members. They have thousands of public sector union members who reliably vote for their masters who rob Peter to pay them. As previously mentioned, even FDR knew public sector unions were a very bad idea. And now we continue to pay for unsustainable contracts and retirements that we were never going to be able to afford. It's part of the reason bridges fall down and our roads are shit, despite the highest fuel taxes in the country. Public sector unions are why the rest of us can't have nice things, and why our grandchildren are never going to get out from under the damage they've caused.
ReplyDeleteI still recall when the Air Traffic Controllers union walked out, with the effect of paralyzing our passenger airline system. Reagan did the correct thing and fired the lot of them. There hasn't been a federal union strike since.
ReplyDelete@2:04
ReplyDelete"Right-to-Work" is not what the name implies. "Right To Fire" is more appropriate and Pennsylvania is such a state. Without a Union, workers in this state (and others states that are "Right To Work") are subject to the will of the employer to be fired - without a reason. In fact, management is instructed to give no reason when letting a person go. Giving a reason allows the worker to dispute the dismissal, so they are simply told, "Thank you for your time with us. Today will be your last day."
Unions create a contract with the employer that sets guidelines for steps in disciplinary action and levels of action that can lead to a dismissal. The Union can also represent the worker in front of the Labor Board for re-instatement if the dismissal was unjust, or out of reprisal (among other reasons). Contracts also deter nepotism and favoritism.
Don't think you are safe working in a state that is a "Right To Work" state, unless you are a Union member.
5:12 The reason for a "Right To Work" state is to eliminate closed union shops. Yes, the employer does also have a right to hire and fire at well; just as the employee have the right to leave on demand. The usual exception is if there are employment contracts.
ReplyDeleteIt works both ways. Just because an employee hires you, doesn't mean you have a "right" to work at that job for life.
"Public sector unions are why the rest of us can't have nice things, and why our grandchildren are never going to get out"
ReplyDeleteEasy to blame the public employee for the shitty economy. Did you ever think that the problem in the private sector has been conditioned to take shit wages for longer hours and more and more part-time jobs because companies drove the economy down and down for more profits and higher dividends to its shareholders. Even Adam Smith, the father of free trade and enterprise, cautioned that if the marketplace does not balance itself for the prosperity of all it isn't working and the state must act to correct it.
Thirty years of conditioning by the right wing oligarchs' has poor Americans blasting other poor Americans. Amazing.
6:07 Lets not forget all of the illegals taking jobs that American workers are entitled to.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Americans just love the work being stolen by migrant farmers.
ReplyDeleteA race to the bottom in pay to workers for thirty years has not only made these guy rich. The people they are screwing over, blame the poor schmuck next door. They have succeeded beyond their expectations. Time for that fifth vacation home.
ReplyDeleteUnions are neither good nor bad. They are a reality like taxes, regulation, and weather. They pop up where they're needed and go away where they're not or they've overplayed their bargaining hand. I'm glad I live where people can choose to unionize and choose not to unionize. Unions get credit for a host of better working conditions. They played political hardball with the big boys and got lots of union friendly politicians elected who codified union working condition demands. Unions made themselves obsolete via the political process. That's how capitalist economies run. As the pendulum always swings, it may swing back to increased union membership. But technology will likely prevent that. Robots and the people who control and maintain them are the future. Some say we're about to lose 140 million jobs to robots in the next 20 years. The competition for the few remaining jobs will further lower wages and make unions unfavorable. We're entering a whole new world and a lot of people are going to be passed by. What the hell will we do with them? And we keep accepting 1.5 million new souls each year. The math is very bad for us.
ReplyDelete@8:35
ReplyDeleteBut people can't choose to unionize. Once the commissars take over, everyone in the "bargaining unit" is forced to join.
That doesn't sound like America, does it?
Thanks for he comment Mother Jones. The people that use that argument you commented on are disingenuous and they know it.
ReplyDelete@11:33
ReplyDeleteIt's not disingenuous at all. Yes, there are always people who will take advantage of a situation, but that's hardly an excuse to *force* any American to join *any* organization.
If you want that sort of totalitarianism, you can have all you want in Cuba or North Korea.
By the way, proud union supporters shouldn't need to be anonymous.
Unfortunately, some HR people just LOVE to peruse blogs like this and other social media and attempt to make an example at the workplace citing code of conduct. Code of conduct is not negotiated. I did not vote for Trump, yet he is still the President and I didn't vote for Toomey and he is still my Senator. It's called our Democratic process. If I don't like it,'I can change it. If I don't like union leadership, I can run against them. Be part of the problem or part of the solution. I believe you know where you are here Mr. Anthony------a proud union supporter??? Mother Jones
DeleteIt is not totalitarian. It is democratic. It is a collective bargaining agreement under which employees in the bargaining unit can be forced to join and pay dues even if they don't like it. Comparing this to totalitarianism is absurd. Under that flawed reasoning, taxes are totalitarian. Why should I pay taxes when I disagree with how the money is spent? I do bc this is a democratic republic. In the case of collective bargaining, a majority of workers have made the decision.That is the way it works.
ReplyDelete@1:54
ReplyDeleteTaxes are not totalitarian, because the are levied by duly elected representatives as specified in our Constitution.
That great document is mute on the subject of labor bosses skimming off the top of payrolls.
Forced membership unionism is no more legitimate than if the majority of people in a particular town or other area decided you had to pay dues to Catholic Charities or the NRA or any other organization. Many states recognize this simple truth through Right to Work laws.
You are incorrect. Taxes are decided on by my representative, not me. The decision to join a union is made by a majority of the workers, not necessarily me. Majority rules. That's democracy. It is incorrect to call this totalitarianism,which is the complete opposite.I could more logically call the Trump administration totalitarian bc it is central, dictatorial and does not reflect the views of a majority. I am NOT making that argument, but am showing you the absurdity of your word choice. You're allowed to dislike unions and all groups are flawed. But this is a far cry from totalitarianism.
ReplyDelete"Majority rules" by itself is mob rule.
ReplyDeleteMajority rules under a constitutional framework is democracy.
If the majority of your neighbors, on an ad hoc basis, decide you have to join and pay dues to a "neighborhood council" or they will force you from your home, that is not democracy. That is mob rule.
Forced membership unions aren't terribly different than that scenario (why do you think the words "mob" and "union" have come to be so closely associated), which is why so many states protect their citizens from predatory labor bosses through Right to Work laws.
Jeff, I am trying to write right now, but you are dead wrong. In case you haven't noticed, what you call mob rule already exists. Any condo or PUD has a homeowners association that very clearly defines what dues you must pay and even provides for special assessments.This is completely democratic. Mob rule is not democracy. It is the use of violence and intimidation to achieve a governmental goal. Yes, some unions use intimidation, which is criminal. They are eventually prosecuted. Unions are democratic institutions, and are no more mob rule than Congress. Now you could argue for a secret ballot, but it is still democratic. You are using the wrong words to explain your disdain, and words are important to me.
ReplyDeleteWords are important to me too.
ReplyDeleteSo are democratic institutions and the rule of law.
Unions are extra-constitutional, and that is problematic when you're talking about labor bosses' ability to strip working Americans of their livelihoods. If, for example, the majority of the local members of the Bugsy Siegel fan club holds an election and votes that I have to pay dues to them, I, as an American protected by the Constitution, should be able to tell them to get stuffed simply because they have no constitutional basis to compell me to do anything. Likewise with labor bosses and their private clubs (otherwise known as unions). From whence do they draw their legitimacy?
As to your comments around union intimidation, the very basis of a union's existence -- "Pay your 'dues' or we'll have you fired" -- is pretty intimidating to most people.
Again, our constitution is mute as to the matter of forced membership unions and their often predatory labor bosses, and so abuses can abound (and certainly have) that are indistinguishable from mob rule (and, when it comes to forced membership unions, it's often been "the mob" that rules). That is why so many states protect their citizens from forced membership unions and their commissars with Right to Work and paycheck protection laws.
When it comes to unions, what's wrong with good old American freedom of choice?
Jeff, Unions are not "extra" constitutional. They are actually protected by the first amendment right of assembly. You just don't know what you're talking about and are inventing excuses to say you don't like unions. Just say it, but don't make up some bullshit reason.
ReplyDelete@3:27
ReplyDeleteNo Bernie. That's not true. I simply don't want Americans to be forced to do anything by organizations that lack any legitimacy for doing so.
If a law is passed by the legislature requiring some action, I may not like it, but it is legitimate unless or until a court says it isn't. That's how our constitution works. But, lacking constitutional legitimacy, even if some labor boss gets 51% of the people in an organization to vote his way, who is he to start dictating who can work and who cannot?
You see, Bernie, we have legislative bodies at the local, state, and federal level (and judicial and legislative branches at those levels) to avoid "rule by Jimmy Hoffa." That's why we have not devolved into a patchwork of feudal fiefdoms -- specifically because not just anyone can grab power. And what more fundamental power is there than power over families' livelihoods? That is *way* too important to entrust to labor bosses not elected by any legitimate, constitutionally recognized process.
And, again, many states have taken seriously their duty to their citizens to protect them from forced-membership union commissars through Right to Work and paycheck protection laws. None of those pieces of legislation have ever been struck down. It's time for more backward states like PA to do the same.
No one is arguing against unions -- or any other legal, voluntary organization. The point is solely around forcing American workers to join them.
Jeff, you can delude yourself, but there is no doubt in my mind that you are completely anti-union. You just can't admit it to yourself for some reason and are positing ridiculous word arguments that actually make no sense. I don't know why you are here at 4 am, but I was writing and now I need to sleep.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how anyone can be deluded with as simple a concept as: Union Yes, Forced Membership No.
ReplyDeleteBut let's not talk about me. Do you believe the legislators of all the Right to Work and Paycheck Protection states who share my views are deluded as well? And that you have a monopoly on the truth when it comes to unions?
I can't really have a discussion about this with someone who simply is lying to himself. Sorry.
ReplyDelete@11:14
ReplyDeleteThat's an easy out Bernie, but hardly an intellectually honest response.
It is completely honest. You misuse words and make fallacious arguments bc you are anti-union while pretending otherwise. As I said, you are not even being honest with yourself. And i really don't like carrying on conversations between 2-4 am, especially when I am writing. I told you i was writing, but that didn't matter to you.
ReplyDelete@10:18
ReplyDeleteNo one said you had to respond, Bernie.
And how you've come to have the Kreskin-like powers to determine whether I am being honest with myself is an interesting mystery.
And, no, I'm not at all anti-union. I am simply opposed to *any* American being forced to join *any* organization against their will. If the Right to Work existed in all 50 states, I couldn't be bothered to write two words about unions -- just as I couldn't care less about most private, voluntary membership organizations.
So, let me review: I have nothing against unions, but loathe the idea of Americans being forced to join *any* organization.
Let me review. You are anti-union. You use the arguments of a sophist to pretend it's something else. I say you lie to yourself only bc I don't think you would intentionally be misleading. It is impossible to carry on a discussion with a person who is unable to be honest with himself and uses goofy arguments like "totalitarianism."
ReplyDeleteForgive me for this being so long. Let me stick my two cents in over this union debate. When somebody is looking for a job they can skip applying where there is a union. That's a choice they are free to make. Simply put nobody's forced to join a union as one commenter continues to argue as if they were.
ReplyDeleteOpen Shop Argument
If someone begins work somewhere and a union is voted in by the majority of fellow workers is how we elect public officials. I cannot imagine any politician being in favor of each of their constituents having a choice to opt in or out the results of an election or the laws they then create. Yet some representatives think it's a great idea when it comes to unions.
Imagine government allowing individual opt outs. Why should someone gets services like streets and police/fire protections, etc. if they opted out never paying a nickel tax towards these benefits? It would be one hellva country whereas one house were left to burn or be robbed because they didn't wish to pay taxes like their neighbor.
Wait you say-- unions are nothing like the government. You're right. We're all forced to live under one government rule as set by the constitution. When it comes to unions we have a "choice". Don't like a union-- don't work for a company who has one.
When my wife worked at a union led production facility one of the employees laughed at his boss and said the company had no grounds to fire him. However the union head said he could dismember him for his violations. AND HE DID. He was able to do this because Pennsylvania law allowing closed shops.
Point is not all unions are protecting workers over the general welfare of the company that provides wages for it's members. Some are damn good unions. It all depends. If not they need to be voted out. Yeah that's yet another "choice" which can be made.
@11:51
ReplyDeleteI don't know that totalitarian is an overstatement.
While no one has a right to be *given* a job, I believe (along with most of the world I think it's safe to say) that it is a fundamental human right to be able to pursue gainful employment within the bounds of one's talents and abilities and to endeavor to make a good living for one's family.
To have a labor boss (un-elected by any Constitutionally recognized process) tell a worker he or she can't do a particular job because they will not submit to his demands seems to me to be a violation of that right.
While you and I can disagree (and I, of course, fully respect you and your right to argue your position -- particularly in a forum of ideas such as this), my position is certainly not in any way on the fringe -- given the great number of American states that have legislatively recognized the Right to Work. If I'm lying to myself, then so are all of the elected government officials and voters who demonstrably share my views.
Jeff, I have not said your anti-union mentality is on the fringe. Far from it. But it is an anti-union mentality, despite your protests to the contrary. And as I have said repeatedly, it is impossible to argue with someone who simply misuses words to make illogical arguments.
ReplyDeleteFull Disclosure + After Thought
ReplyDeleteI worked at Kraft Foods in Fogelsville for 33 years. We voted in the UAW for two years. They sucked in my opinion. We voted them out along with turning down a half dozen more who attempted to organize many years thereafter. We were free to make those choices and we did.
It also brought to mind all the people who purchase property with homeowners association fees attached. Why would you expect opt outs with them anymore then places with unions?
Nobody forces anybody to make these kind of choices.
September 2, 2017 at 2:03 PM
Jeffrey Anthony said...,"To have a labor boss (un-elected by any Constitutionally recognized process) tell a worker he or she can't do a particular job because they will not submit to his demands seems to me to be a violation of that right."
Then don't work for them. Start your own business. Nobody is forcing you to work for somebody else. It is your right to do so. There are now plenty of charter schools not unionized as well as other startups who agree with your point of view. Whether you agree or not under current law people are allowed to organize as they see fit. You can do whatever you'd like without the "demands" of a labor leader. So what's the problem?
@2:29
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that no private citizen should have undue power over another. This is the heart of the Right to Work laws adopted in many states.
And schools are a particularly poor example. If a citizen and taxpayer wants to pursue a dedicated vocation in public education, who is a labor boss (paid by tax dollars earmarked for public education) to tell them they can't? Fortunately, in many states, they can't.
LVCI, I'll let you carry on with Jeff. Sorry. I'm just too ornery today. More than normal.
ReplyDelete@3:09
ReplyDeleteHope nothing is really wrong, Bernie. Be well...
What's wrong is that I am a miserable bastard. Even i don't like me.
ReplyDelete@3:20
ReplyDeleteWell, take solace in the fact that you provide a genuine public service day in and day out -- even when I don't agree with you :-)
THE LAST GREAT AMERICAN PATRIOT says....
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:02. Happens everyday in America in a variety of ways. You are anti-union and have planted your flag with your position. Your sophomoric sophist argument aside. As LVCI stated if you hate to work under the rules of a workplace that has adopted a policy implemented by a majority of the workforce for their protection, you have the right to not work there.
You argument is fallacious, as it is simple and could logically be applied to any thing you as an individual do not want to do. The extreme right wing has used this to build a media empire much to the harm of civilized society.
September 2, 2017 at 3:09 PM Bernie O'Hare said...
ReplyDelete"LVCI, I'll let you carry on with Jeff. Sorry. I'm just too ornery today. More than normal."
I know the feeling. You know me well enough by now I don't deal well debating in comments beyond a certain point. That's why I'm so popular :-)
@4:18 The legislators and Governors (and, by extension, Supreme Courts) of 26 Right to Work states see it differently than you.
ReplyDeleteYou say my (and their) argument is fallacious, and yet you do not support your claim with any explicit reasoning. You use a few words beyond the vocabulary of some folks, but you do not, in fact, argue a point.
THE LAST GREAT AMERICAN PATRIOT says...
ReplyDeleteThe point is you have no real point. In a country of individuals there will always be compromises made for the stability of a society. We all have rights as individuals, yet in order to liv in a group or a civilized society you will by necessity sacrifice some of that individuality in order to survive within that ordered society. If a state votes to outlaw closed shops, then that is the law in that state. I tend to disagree with the "right to work" moniker. Maybe the anti-union shop moniker would be more appropriate. Just a thought. Maybe this will be settled in the US Supreme Court one day.
Naturally, anyone can pick and choose the things they feel infringe on their "individual rights. My point is you have picked unions. No problem. However, unions or closed shops in and of themselves are not evil or wrong. For you they are wrong. Just as for the CSA secession was not wrong or illegal, however, the US disagreed.