At Friday night's candidates' night, hosted by the LV Tea Party, Republican senatorial candidate Pat Toomey wasted no time condemning the Obama / Reid / Pelosi troika."Their mission is to fundamentally redesign the American polity, to turn us into a European-style welfare state where a vast government controls the economy, redistributes wealth and forces the kind of social and economic outcomes that their Mandarins want to impose on the rest of us. And what's so encouraging to me is the way the American people are rising up, and saying very clearly and unambiguously, as we're saying today, 'we will have none of this.'
"I think the people of Pennsylvania and, I suspect, beyond that, they understand that the source of the greatness of our society is never government. The greatness of America is the American people."
(You can see the video here.)
Toomey was certainly "preaching to the choir,"as noted at LVPoliblog. At the only other tea party meeting I attended, the general consensus was that we are well along the path of socialism, and have been ever since Teddy Roosevelt was President.
But is this view accurate? According to Common Dreams' Nine Myths About Socialism in the US, no.
Bernie,
ReplyDeleteAre you trying to deny what Pat Toomey, and many others are saying? Do you deny that Team Obama is pushing America full throttle forward on a progressive/socialist agenda?
Scott Armstrong
Actually, I thoght Toomey
ReplyDelete's message was quite pwerful and persuasive, but wanted to counterbalance what he said with another perspective.
I have not quite made up my mind.
Bernie,
ReplyDeleteWhy should I or anyone who isn't a socialist believe or care what that leftist agenda driven site reports?
Scott Armstrong
For the same reason that we should care what is reported by conservative sites, too.
ReplyDeleteThere are four versions of the New Testament, Scott. If you only read one of them, you're missing 75% of the story.
Bernie,
ReplyDeleteOne either believe in the socialist utopian state of they don’t. Remember, tyranny for the cause of social justice is still tyranny. If one empowers the state to create/ ensure “fairness” they are in fact creating a tyrant. They are empowering the state to decide and enforce something that is relative and/or subjective. Can you say Pandora’s Box?
The tyranny of the individual has proven to be a far smaller threat to mankind and liberty than state tyranny. This nation’s founders understood this over two hundred years ago. It is perplexing that well educated and intelligent people remain ignorant to the lessons of history and to this day persist in the mission of state empowerment for “altruistic” reasons.
To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, a state that is strong enough to give you what you need is strong enough to take everything you have.
By the way, my google account has gone back to "screwed up".
Scott Armstrong
Bernie,
ReplyDeleteComte and Hegel are on the shelf for anyone to read, I don’t need a refresher course from a web site.
Scott Armstrong
Now we are likening Hegel to our society and government? Hayek sounded better. If that is the case, the Roman Empire had to end sometime. If we rely on philosophy to solve these problems, (irregardlessly) we will end up like the Roman Empire...
ReplyDeletePeace, ~~Alex+
We are far from socialism. And, in reality, the tea parties, Scott Armstrong, etc. do not truely have an understanding of economics or, the facts. Economically, we were better under Clinton then either Reagan/Bush 1 or Bush 2. The budget deficit went from $900B to $2.8T under Reagan. The country nearly imploded under Bush 2. And the 2009 budget and it's $1.6T deficit was Bush's last budget, not Obama's 1st.
ReplyDeleteToomey doesn't want less Government, he just wants it to promote his agenda. If he truely wanted less Government he would be all for a much smaller military and a hands off policy across the globe. If Toomey wanted less Government he would not want to use the power of Government impose his values on the rest of us. (truely less Government would mean allowing the personal freedoms of gay marriage and a right to choose).
And where were Toomey, Scott and the Tea Baggers when VP Chaney was verbalizing the opinion that deficits don't matter (www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A26402-2004Jun8?language=printer)? Truth be told, they either didn't have the balls to speak up against their own, or have no clue about economics, or both.
Elections have consequences. The Rs lost in 2006 and 2008. Then they made the tactical decision to not negotiate on health care. They made a mistake.
IF they negotiated in good faith more of what they wanted would be in the bill. Instead, they stated very clearly they would not negotiate and then complained that the Ds were not negotiating.
Funny thing, the "socialist" health care bill looks nothing like Great Britian or Canada and is basically what Eisenhower and Nixion had unsuccessfully pushed for when they were President. So I guess that makes Ike a socialist as well.
Publius
SA at 8:35pm said:
ReplyDelete"It is perplexing that well educated and intelligent people remain ignorant to the lessons of history ..."
I agree. And suggest that you spend more time reading and studying and stop getting talking points from Glenn Beck.
Just to let you know, I have struck the use of the word "Teabagger" and replaced it with "Tea Party" on my post. Some people get their knickers in a knot over strange things.
ReplyDeleteSame people who didn't get upset about more important things
Alex,
ReplyDeleteTo their way of thinking the “altruistic” mission of the left justifies the means. To create “fairness “and redress past wrongs they seek to empower the state to remedy all transgressions real or imagined. In the process the state becomes a tyrant and the individual a subject of expanded state authority. One could spend a lifetime reading the philosophical tomes but a quick review of history more readily provides the truth.
Scott Armstrong
"By the way, my google account has gone back to "screwed up".
ReplyDeleteScott Armstrong"
Uh oh. Crazy Villa will rant about that the next 6 weeks and use it as an excuse to impersonate everyone. He'll also write a post as devastating as his "w/" post and "Bernie O'Hare = Retired ASD Teacher" posts.
Why the effort to deny the obvious, that the current administration and the Democrat Party are steering the nation on a course to socialism? Why are those on the left defensive about the word that accurately describes their political philosophy? Why be disingenuous?
ReplyDeleteI am not afraid to write that I am a small government conservative, why does the left now deny who they are?
Of course the question is rhetorical. We know the answer.
Scott Armstrong
Chris, I won't use the term bc some nice people are offended by it. But John Hinkle used it at LV Conservative Voice last week, and nobody corrected him. He meant no harm, and neither did you.
ReplyDeleteBernie,
ReplyDeleteWhen I have an hour to kill I will go throught the entire(google) process again. But in light of past experence I must question why bother.
Scott Armstrong
That scares me. It sounds like the Italians Machiavelli and a little like Pico della Mirandola.
ReplyDeleteIf you really want to start a new, and turn some heads, we should subscribe to the Uberminch theory by Nietzsche.
I still don't understand the correlation between formal philosophy and economics. Although Von Hayek made perfect sense.
Peace, ~~Alex+
Scott, anyone who equates me with you is really insulting you. I'm getting the raw end of the deal here. I have no beautiful French wife.
ReplyDeleteAnd I can even speak some French damn it! I speak two languages, you know.
ReplyDeleteFather Alex, i don't speak three languages. I have no idea what you meant, and I have a Philosophy degree. Of course, I'm a Democrat.
ReplyDeleteI take for granted you are referring to "Uberminch." I probably spelled it incorrectly. That is the German philosopher, Nietzsche's, super-man theory. He is a little out there with his implications and thoughts.
ReplyDeleteThe others are Italian philosophers. They have there own ideas for the role of governing bodies and people's places in societies. (By the way, Pico was burned at the stake!)
And hopefully, you know the economist Von Hayek?
I didn't know you possess a philosophy degree. Congrats. I don't like to brag about my background. I always felt I could do more. But I don't speak only three languages...
Lastly, Scott is that really you or is that your sock-puppet. How can we be sure? You were pleasant in these communications. You were as damning towards the Democrats as you used to be. I don't think it is you.
Peace, ~~Alex+
Ron Paul
ReplyDelete"The question has been raised about whether or not our president is a socialist," Paul said. "I am sure there are some people here who believe it. But in the technical sense, in the economic definition of a what a socialist is, no, he's not a socialist."
"He's a corporatist," Paul continued. "And unfortunately we have corporatists inside the Republican party and that means you take care of corporations and corporations take over and run the country."
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/04/ron-paul-president-obama-is-not-a-socialst.php?ref=fpa
The implied challenge to the patriotism of anyone who can be "named" as a socialist by their support for safety web and other social legislation is red-baiting. Is Medicare socialism. Are there any pure capitalist societies? The money corporations receive in welfare, I mean supports, tax breaks etc
ReplyDeleteWasn't the European system pushed by Conservatives?
ReplyDeleteDidn't we hear these same arguments during the Clinton years?
What's so horrible about Europe, other than that they're happier, healthier, more educated, have a higher standard of living and aren't shooting each other in the streets like we are? They're jealous of our FREEDOM FRIES!
ReplyDelete"Mandarins"; really. That is hilarious. "Mandarin"; he is a funny wacko.
ReplyDeleteToomey better just stick to calling Democrats big oranges, his constituency may not get the mandarin shot.
Toomey will be painted with the Glenn Beck brush this fall and he will go down big time even in a Republican year.
He is an extremest Wall Street International Banker guy who wants to jail pregnant women seeking abortions. Yea, he will do real well in November.
The conversation on Obama and company being a socialist has a bit of the "do you enjoy beating your dog" kind of quality.
ReplyDeleteIt is hilarious to hear conservatives think we live (or should live) in a capitalist society. And we don't live in a true socialist society either. A better article to read is by Robert Fisher, a professor at DeSales University and NCC entitled "Neo-Socialism may be the only way to save what's left of capitalism". You may find it on the web.
ReplyDeleteKind of funny hearing all this talk of "socialized medicine" coming from the GOP.
ReplyDeleteFrom a May 2005 article CNN and Fortune Magazine: "Still, there's a potential common agenda lurking beneath today's health-cost angst. Think of it as a two-step: First, we'd move a chunk of private-sector health costs to government, something business and labor could embrace as a competitiveness booster. Then we'd find ways to guarantee coverage for all while reengineering health-care delivery to lower costs in the long term (without the price controls that stall innovation abroad). Easier said than done, you may say. But seen in this context, the prescription-drug bill last year was the first step in the Republican-led socialization of health spending. Companies have been clobbered funding retiree health plans. The GOP felt their pain, and presto, $750 billion over ten years moved from private to public budgets."
Those who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.
From 2:54 PM
ReplyDeleteTo all of you conservative extremists, here is the url to the article I was talking about earlier. Learn something about history before you cast your vile stones.
http://articles.mcall.com/2009-08-30/news/4432603_1_socialism-capitalism-robber-barons
Toomey is scary, plain and simple. We cannot let him get elected.
ReplyDeleteToomey is unelectable in Pennsylvania!
ReplyDelete