Help me out here. Last night, Northampton County Council considered a nonbinding resolution urging Congress to establish a program that offers free healthcare to everyone. It's obviously a controversial topic, but I'm writing about it because I don't really know what happened.All nine council members were present. Council Prez Ann McHale abstained because she's in the insurance biz. That leaves council with a quorum of eight on that issue. When the votes were cast, John Cusick answered "Present." To me, that's an indication he is present and therefore makes up part of an eight-person quorum.
The final vote was four to three, with one abstention and one present. According to Council Clerk Frank Flisser, the motion passed.
But did it?
Northampton County's Home Rule Charter provides that "a majority of a quorum shall be required for the adoption of a motion." Cusick voted he was present, so he is part of an quorum. I think five votes were needed.
Am I nutz? It could be that I misunderstood Frank, too, but two council members also believe that motion passed.
26 comments:
4 is not a majority of 8. you are correct, the motion did not pass.
Our current President and Dear Leader made a legislative career out of "present" votes. He later became our Lord and Savior. Cusick may be launching his presidential campaign.
Present is not a valid vote, and in lehigh county it is not a permitted response to a roll call vote- you either vote yea or nay or abstain. None of this "present" stupidity. Andy Roman tried that once and was told that is not an option.
Whether "present" is a valid option ot note, that's the vote that was cast, and I honestly have no idea whether that resolution actually passed. If I have a chance, I'll do some research when I get to the courthouse.
a workhorse that doesn't vote... go fig. He wants to be county exec.
Like I said, I don't want to get in the usual bashing here. I want to know whether that resolution passed or not.
Mt bethel says:
The motion passes. There are 3 ways to vote, yes, no, and abstain. If you vote any other way then yes or no, you abstain. You can say richardcranium, and it would be abstaining. There fore, the motion passes 4-3 with 2 abstaining. Capiche?
What does that "present" vote really mean? I think it means that the person rightly beleives that universal health care is NOT a matter for any Municipal or County governing board to vote on. It means it is a play by the person who introduced it to insinuate themselves into Federal matters for political name recognition in the future and the voter wants not part of that.
According to Robert's Rules of Order:
Present is a valid vote and is tallied seperately. In a Roll Call Vote which is taken on all council votes. "'present' is the answer if he does not wish to vote.
Cusicks vote was a valid one and allowed
Now as for the majority:
If the county generally follows Robert's Rules Section 48 answers directly whether the motion passes. A majority is defined as:
"more than half of the votes cast, ignoring blanks, at a legal meeting where a quorum is present, unless a larger vote for its adoption is required by the rules of assembly."
Therefore, as long as council's rules aren't special the motion did pass because Cusick's "present" vote is not counted at all and he is only there to have a quorum.
4-3 in this case is a majority.
"Cusick's "present" vote is not counted at all and he is only there to have a quorum."
But that's what troubles me.
1) Cusick's vote means he is PRESENT and wishes to be counted for purposes of a quorum. You apparently agree w/ me on that point.
2) The HRC provides there must be amajoirty of a quorum in order for a motion or reolution to pass.
3) Since, by your own reasoning, Cusick is part of that quorum, didn't the resolution fail? The quorum was 8.
Robert's Rules and most governments see it as two different things.
While Cusick's present vote shows her was present for the debate on the resolution the rules for a roll call vote clearly state that his vote is not counted toward the majority. Once a quorum is established the vote can happen.
Then Robert's Rules state the vote was 4-3 with 7 members voting and one member voting present.
Now it depends on NorCo Council Rules, but from the way you tell the story the rules don't much matter.
I think the resolution passed if there is no tradition on council or rule that changes Robert's Rules of Order for a roll call vote.
Bernie, a quorum may be best defined as the number of members need be in attendance in order to conduct business. In most boards this number is one over half the members, a majority.
That said, if you have a nine member board and five members are present, than official business may be conducted. In the above example with five members present three becomes the majority and a three to two vote passes.
Northampton Councils Charter/ by-laws should state specifically the number or board members need to constitute a quorum.
Furthermore only votes for the affirmative or the negative really count for passage.
For example, in a nine member board if eight abstain and one votes ya, the motion passes.
Also voting present is the same as abstaining, without a conflict of interest.
But I could be wrong.
The count for a quorum is determined by the role call not by the number of members who vote on a particular bill. The quorum count was 9 for the meeting (with 5 being the minimum number). According to the Charter (Section 601.a) motions require a majority of the quorum (which was 9 in this case)to pass. With only 4 votes the motion did not pass.
Dean
Dean, this is OT but thanks for your stance on the land trust issue. If that were to go forward, it has to involve the non-profits that are already doing this type of work in Lehigh County.
The Banker
Banker, I'm going to stray OT, too, and thank Dean for his fiscal prudence and salient observations of possible pitfalls, which were enough to persuade the Cunningham administration to take the time to rethink its position. No matter whjat the final tally may be, LC cotoizens are being well-served by their Commissioners and exec, all of whom take the time to listen to each other.
But on a sad note, I have to observe that some of the Topix wing nuts personally threatened Cindy Feinberg, a LC employee whose sole sin was to do her job. her life was threatened. Despite the efforts of both Cunningham and even The Morning Call, that threat remained up for at least 15 hours.
Eckville is right Browning is wrong.
Dean, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of a quorum. A quorum of a board, in this case, should be defined in the Charter because of the importance. Again a quorum is the minimum number of voting members who must be present at a properly called meeting in order to conduct business in the name of the group. The number should be set in the Charter and can not be changed on how many members are present, but by amending the Charter.
Again Respectfully,
Eck
Quorum is beside the point. The Northampton County Home Rule Charter requires five votes to pass any Resolution or Ordinance. Therefore, a vote of "present" or an "abstention" is essentially a "no" vote. The Resolution in every other body would have passed. But it did not pass in Northampton County.
It depends on the rules established by the body (such as in the Home Rule Charter). It can either be a majority of the seats on the board or a majority of those present and voting. On the East Penn School Board, a majority of the board must vote to pass any motion. Thus, if only five of the nine board members are at a meeting, all must vote yea to pass any motion.
In NC's case, I checked out their Home Rule Charter (http://www.northamptoncounty.org/northampton/lib/northampton/depts/countyexecutive/charter.pdf). Page 14 says:
"Section 601. Acts Of the County Council
(a) Acts. The County Council shall act only by the adoption of an ordinance, resolution, budget, or motion. The vote of a majority of the members shall be required for the adoption of an ordinance, resolution, or budget, unless otherwise provided by this Charter. The vote of a majority of a quorum shall be required for the adoption of a motion."
Dean Browning is right on the money here: five yea votes were required.
I followed that thread and you would have to be from another planet to see a threat to Ms. Fineberg. Don't be your usual Drama Queen O'Hare.
I'm still standing my ground on the quorum.
Section 207, Meetings
Article II
County Council
(b)
Quorum. A majority of the members shall constitute a quorum. The County Council shall conduct no business except in the presence of a quorum.
That said five members constitutes a quorum.
Now on whether the non-binding resolution passed or not.
Was there a motion to pass the resolution or does it just magically come up for vote?
If non-binding resolutions are acted on by motion Eck would be inclined to believe the resolution passed.
What say you?
Respectfully,
Eck
I did not read the Topix thread. I spoke early this evening to a LC official who told me that Ms. Feinberg's life was threatened. Perhaps that's not exactly what was written, but it must have been pretty outrageous. Because she is not a person who is in the public eye, this really upset her. It took LC and the newspaper 15 hrs to have the comment removed.
I'm being no drama queen. I am regularly savaged there. But someone who is just doing her job does not deserve to be hammered and your insenitivty is nothing to be proud of.
What does a "Present" vote mean?
In a roll call vote, voting "present" records that the member was in attendance but did not cast a vote. Nothing else.
I think a quorum is three up and three down.
Dennis Eckersley
*Don't mean to slag anyone off -- just having a little fun. Not smart enough to have an opinion on the main topic.
Dennis, no need to be smart, just Google.
Indeed. Google "Dennis Eckersley".
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