The Lehigh Valley has two dailies - The Express Times and Morning Call. Both papers allow readers to comment, but only The Morning Call's reader forum sounds like a Klan rally. After speaking to the people responsible for this interactive feature, I know why. One newspaper carefully monitors what is being said, while the other doesn't seem to care.That's the whole point, isn't it? Newspapers have become interactive because they really, really, really, really want to hear from their readers. They're supposed to care, right?
Express Times LehighValleyLive editor Alyssa Young spells out three big differences between the two dailies. First, before anyone can post a comment at The Express Times, registration is required. This helps eliminate trolls who use sock puppets to post cruel remarks or impersonate others. Second, The Express Times' comment feature is available only for some stories. This makes it easier to monitor. Third, when a comment is received, editors get an email notifying them so they can monitor what is being said. In short, the Express Times allows its staff to keep up with what readers think. As a result, there is none of the cruel, racist, and misogynist commentary that has become standard fare at The Morning Call.
I told you about this standard fare yesterday. Some of the garbage I mentioned remained until mid-afternoon, even though those comments were flagged on Saturday and I sent two separate emails about them. And the slime continued throughout the evening. In a story about yet another Allentown shooting, readers posted little nuggets like this. "This story should be printed in Spanish, since that's who's involved." And this. "Save the taxpayers' money and kill all involved. Case closed!!" And in the inquisition into the private sex life of Senator Larry Craig, we get this homophobic pearl. "Anyone really care what eight queers claim?"
And get this. Some bastard is posting some really hateful remarks disguised as me, and now I'm getting online threats. "Bernie, I hope your name and address is listed in the phone book......coming soon..."
Whoopee!
It's a good thing I can run like hell for a fat guy, but I better buy some new sneaks just in case. The Morning Call assured me it had stopped that problem. Guess not.
When you come right down to it, The Morning Call is downright hypocritical. It piously proclaims it really, really, really, really wants to hear from us. And then it ignores comments, making it pretty clear it places no value at all on reader input. In fact, by the way it has ignored the threat against me, I question whether it values its readers' lives. Fortunately, I have an invisibility cloak I picked up at a yard sale this summer.
The Morning Call is by no means alone. I've read accounts about similar problems at Iowa's Telegraph Herald, Miami Herald, Chicago Tribune and Washington Post. The problem even exists in Australia. In a way, that's reassuring. At least we know the Lehigh Valley does not have the largest concentration of KKK grand wizards in the world.
In an outstanding post at Diacritical, the need to monitor, or "curate," comments is emphasized. The complaint that this just wastes resources is dismissed for these reasons:
1. The interactive audience is much more loyal than the passive one.The hate speech has been appearing at The Morning Call now for years. It sets a bad tone for that otherwise excellent paper, and is actually damaging its reputation. If it is unable effectively to monitor its comment feature, it needs to drop it. A Filter that prevent words like bastard and shithead is not monitoring. As The Curmudgeon noted yesterday, "They don't encourage community discussions, they encourage hate-mongering and they are an embarrassment to the Valley."
2. Reader comments, managed well, are important content that helps define a publication's personality and puts it in conversation with its audience.
3. Everything on a website sets the tone of a publication - stupid comments suggest this is a stupid place, smart comments attract other smart, engaged readers.
4. Paying lip service to being interactive is worse than ignoring your audience altogether.
So how do they correct this? Simple. First, require registration. Second, only allow comments on stories that you have the resources to monitor. Third, when someone is threatened, it might be nice to warn him now and then. Thow me a frickin' bone!
Instead, The Morning Call continues to allow the hate, especially when it permits comments on crime stories. Those always bring out the worst in people. The Morning Call is inviting sensationalism from its readers. Editors can beat their breasts and claim to be shocked, totally shocked, by what they see. But we're beyond that now. It's happened too many times to feign ignorance. If publishers allow this to continue, it will be for the money.
Stop the hate.
37 comments:
Anonymous post allow users to express
truth, spin, and relieve stress over an article that might be considered
truthful, propaganda, and articles that might be considered self serving
of corporate interest in which dumb Middle Class Americans could get caught up and consider policy that would be against there own interest.
Or perceive moral conflicts of culture.
Have you ever seen:
V for Vendetta
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0434409
I considered ideas exciting, fun, frustrating and sometimes hateful.
Hey ain't that America
In time of OLD people did not express ideas, they would shutter when the King with disapproval would say.
"Who said that!"
Anon 3:42,
Sorry, when people use anonymity to post slimy hateful remarks and threaten people, it makes the site a garbage site. This is not because of the anonymity, but because the MC doe not actually read the comments, and the devolve to the lowest common denominator.
I allow anonymous posts, and it works bc I actually read what people write and am interested in what they say. The MC claims to be interested, but its own failure to challenge those who post slime is evidence that it does not read comments at all.
I've never seen a reporter or editor actually discuss a story with readers. The only two staffers who do that are Bill White and Micek. Since the paper is not actually interacting with its readers and couldn't care less what is written, it should at least require registration to deter the garbage posts.
bernie
the good people of the lehigh valley are frustrated. they see the decline of what was a wonderful place to live, and raise a family. the perception is that most of the crime is committed by what was once minorities ,(and now majorities). why have the once majorities moved to the burbs? there is a very stong segregation of the haves and the have nots. the people have done this with their legs (they moved the hell out). this frustration manifests itself in comments on mcall. while i do not agree with all, some are dead on. in this PC world, people would be castrated for speaking what is on their mind.(look at the poor soul in lower macungie and the other guy with the same name) it might be a public service to provide a place for this venting ,anonmously. hey just like TV if you don't like it don't read it.
Ex-Allentowner.
It's more than "venting." Its racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, xenophobic, sexist and just plain mean. It is our dark underside. What ideas are advanced by permitting that type of discussion? And what justification is there for allowing someone to use anonymity or a sock puppet to post threats?
I'm sorry, but that's not free speech. In some cases, it is criminal behavior.
It does not happen on the blogs because we actually do care what readers think and will take the time to respond. In fairness, it does not happen on MC blogs either.
But because no one is home at the MC, it happens there. The whole point of interactivity is to present a two-sided street. Because no one monitors or responds to what is being said, a few misanthropes make the LV sound like a haven for white supremacists.
And I'm sorry, when I read a post about a triple homicide, I don't like reading that the murderers should have kept on going.
That ain't America. And contrary to what you seems to think, the First Amendment gives you no right to say what you want on a site maintained by others. They have the right to set their own rules about what is or is not acceptable. The MC has set such rules. It needs to enforce them. If it can't do that, it needs to drop its comments forum.
i disagree. it is my humble opinion the mc is trying to promote a discussion of the topic .yeah people get carried away and when i see that ,i skip over that one and say what an ahole, and move on.It is important to know, and realize there exist aholes out there.
as long as i don't directly threaten someone or cause a panic (fire in a theatre)i have the right to state my opinion.
i wish i could be up front and use my name but the repercussions could be devastating. so i choose to remain anonymous.
if someone from my circle were involved i certainly would not be reading comments.they are peoples opinion, they are comments on an article ,not an article!
everybody has their own parameters for taste after all one mans smut is anothers .......
you can not be the free speech police nor can i .
I agree with ex Allentowner.. There is alot of frustration out there and, I believe, rightly so.
Again I believe the racist crap is sickening but most sane people ignore it anyway..
"as long as i don't directly threaten someone or cause a panic (fire in a theatre)i have the right to state my opinion."
No, you don't. This has nothing to do with free speech.That important civil liberty has no application here or at the MCall online forum. We have the right to set the rules for comment in our own house, so to speak.
If your reasoning is correct, then spammers should be allowed to load up online sites with all kinds of ads for their products, including porn, viagra, penis enlargers and hot stocks. Those comments are filtered or manually removed.
The purpose of having a reader forum is to promote a discussion of the story, right? Bloggers constantly participate with readers, but I have yet to see a reporter comment on a story she's written or interact with readers in any way. If the papers really care what readers think and are reaching out to them, why doesn't that happen?
The papers have rules, terms of service, for comments. Certain words may not be used. But sock puppets constantly break those rules, and it is with impunity. Days will go by before offending comments are removed. And this is because no one at the newspaper with any authority is actually reading those comments. They don't really care.
The end result is that the comments deteriorate until we end up with the crap I see there all the time. And no, I don't like to participate on that reader forum. I don't usually read them. The only time I bother is when there is a story about something I've just blogged about or when it deals w/ local government. An even there, it's usually not worth the personal attacks that inevitably follow a comment.
The reader forum is damaging the paper's reputation. What's worse, it's now being used so people can threaten each other, too. I don't appreciate that. And I'm not exactly thrilled that someone is posting hate speech under my name, and at the paper's "oh well" attitude about that or the slams and threats that follow.
Tom Foolery claims that we must put up with racist crap because there's a lot of frustration out there. That makes no sense. People can vent without being hateful. If they can't, they need to be seeing a shrink, not the reader forum.
"It's more than "venting." Its racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, xenophobic, sexist and just plain mean. It is our dark underside. What ideas are advanced by permitting that type of discussion"
Venting is constitutionally protected excercise of the 1st ammendment. More venting is a good thing.
Threats are not free speech, but homophobic, sexist, racist slurs or anti-government tirades are.
"Give me freedom or give me death" was a threat to British imperial rule 200+ years ago.
Protect free speech or lose it.
One last thing:
I agree: stop the hate. but keep speaking freely without abridgement by anyone, any entity public or private.
Free Speech,
Excuse me, but there's a big difference between "Give me liberty or give me death!" and "Bernie, I hope your name and address is listed in the phone book......coming soon..."
Contrary to what you seem to think, the First Amendment is not absolute. And it is a freedom against what the government may do, not a private business. Read the damn thing. It's not very long and contains no big words. It applies to Congress, not the MCall.
Stop the hate.
"keep speaking freely without abridgement by anyone, any entity public or private."
That's not the First Amendment, dude. And this absolutist view would last about three seconds. When your boss fires you for telling him to f--k off, do you honestly think a court will allow you to sue for a violation of your free speech rights? Dream on.
Blogmeister--return to the light and stop the hateful sarcasm. I know the constitution and its bill of rights is not long.
I said threats were not covered.
I do believe free speech is nearly absolute but not completely. Your nutty tirades are protected. Your sometimes lucid comments are too. Your ignorant comments protected. Someone threatening you is not.
Yelling fire in a movie house is not.
Making your opinions known on a public comments is the very essence of free speech.
You should know better. Defend Free Speech or lose it.
Free speech,
So we agree free speech is not absolute, then. The First Amendment limits what Congress may do. It has no application to private business. And whether you like it or not, a newspaper is a private business. It sets the rules for commentary at its own site. It does have terms of service. It does filter out words it deems to be unacceptable. Just because you call something "public" doers not make it public. It is not the same thing as a town square. The same is true here. I have deleted several personal attacks, a few OT comments, and hate speech. But you have no first amendment right here. I could delete every one of your comments (not that I would) and you would have no recourse.
I happen to like the free and open exchange of ideas, so I appreciate the argument. But it's been my experience that once someone starts posting hateful remarks, it actually becomes counterproductive and deters the very speech you claim to admire so much.
And you have not answered yesterday's question. You claimed 10,000 people attended a Nazi rally in Allentown's west park before WWII. What is ytour authority for that? I'd like to read about it.
Stop the hate.
Newspapers have a public forum responsibility. The reason, myself included, detest many papers for limiting opinion, editing out those whom they do not like and conspiring in their editorial decisions. They are private businesses engaged in public discourse and affairs. Let them publish all opinions! Not just the ones they find politically correct.
Nazis in west park. You could probably go thru mcall archives or evening chronicle or german papers or hang out at the old clubs that are still downtown--austrian hungarian; not sure if ledenkratz on 4th is stillopen.
My sources are real people: my grandfather who wall allen high school prez in 1930; his sister my great aunt grad of allen in 1935; my grandmather a grad of the old allentown catholic h.s. class of 1930 and their friends...most of whom are dead.
In fact as my pop explains, the FBI was recruiting people in many german social clubs to provide intell on nazi activity.
Essentially, Berks and Lehigh Counties had strong nazi activity. Indeed some nut case modern nazis remain active in berks county.
And then u have your friend Ron Angle....
I forgot. Defend Free Speech or lose it. Even if the speech is hateful.
Free Speech,
1) Ron Angle is my friend, and he's no Nazi. he might try to convince you he is, but I know the truth. And he'd be with you, not me, on this argument.
2) Where in the First Amendment does it proclaim that newspapers have a public forum responsibility? Gee, before the Internet, when it was just publishing LTEs, it had no obligation to post just any piece of shit you'd want to have published. Now that we have the Internet, does that somehow mean that a paper must suddenly become irresponsible and allow people to post whatever pops into their head? No such obligation exists in the Constiturion or anywhere else. And since when can someone be forced to provide and pay for a forum in which people post nothing but drivel, threats, smears and rants? Doesn't that person have rights, too? Isn't that a form of slavery, when you some down to it? The simple truth is that there is no authority to back this ridiculous argument. Nice try.
3) Thanks for the info re Nazis in Lehigh County. I'm going to look into it. I think it's fascinating But remember yesterday? One of your arguments is that this hate speech demonstrates what this area is really like, and you used that as an example. Turns out you're wrong. That hate speech appears anywhere there is a news site that does not effectively monitor the posts.
1. Even neo nazis like free speech? maybe ron is just klanner.
2. Such rubbish I know where not to begin! Papers are forms of excercising free speech. The owners do control and monitor though they should not, it is in the instruments of excercising speech perhaps an absolute position should be held. Bottom line: mcall should not eliminate or abridge our right to articulate our opinions. And seeing the hate does more, I believe, to deter it.
3. I do believe people are filled with hate. This area has historically had its fair share i.e. nazis and their sympathizers. And yes in the land of McCarren walters we need free speech to provide an alternative point of view.
Defend Free speech or lose it.
Free Speech said...
"Newspapers have a public forum responsibility.Essentially, Berks and Lehigh Counties had strong nazi activity. Indeed some nut case modern nazis remain active in berks county."" Free speech was ment for differing opinions, My grandfather was in the Spanish-American war in 1898, my father was in WW2 and my brother was in Vietnam. Our family roots came to this country in the 1780's. So don't give me this Nazi crap. Freedome of speech is just that, it is the right to say what you want. But when you become a racist, you are on your own.
I didn't say we should put up with the racist crap because there is alot of frustration out there. I said there is alot of frustration out there and we should expect some racist crap. However , it is easy to ignore if we choose. You choose not to ignore it and it is upsetting you. If you feel that way stop reading the comment section..
I'm not sure I like what the EXpress Times is doing either. We should be able to comment on any story. Also, I don't like messages being sent to some moderator every time a post is made. Moderators should peruse the forums, respond quickly to complaints and most importantly, leave comments (unless egregiously vile) and simply ban the people posting them. This sort of public humiliation is what is most effective. Secret messages and covert deletions and edits are not good.
ex allentowner - You can register AND remain anonymous - at least to the readership. However, registering would force you to put a real email address which may only be accessible to MC moderators. This alone would cause people to double think their racist tripe.
Venting is constitutionally protected excercise of the 1st ammendment. More venting is a good thing.
I think some people should actually read and study the Constitution. You have no 1st Amendment right to post anything the Morning Call's website. That is absurd and sophomoric thinking.
do believe free speech is nearly absolute but not completely. Your nutty tirades are protected. Your sometimes lucid comments are too. Your ignorant comments protected. Someone threatening you is not.
Yelling fire in a movie house is not.
What in the hell are you talking about? Blogger or Google or whoever owns this blog service could do anything they want to BO's comments. BO is using their service which is a PRIVATE business. His rants are protected on his front stoop but not on someone else's dime.
River: good for u and your progenitors. Stating historical facts like a strong presence of nazis anywhere in america is factual. get over it. I am not saying majority, plurality or even an outsize minority--but they were here. And a few whack jobs remain.
The blabbering here is wonderful. It is a celebration of the 1st ammendment, even while you Orwellians seek to curb the Morning Call's admirable --and they have few admirable qualities-forum of free speak.
Again, let free minds freely speak and let the haters be seen for what they are-odious thugs.
Anything less is to lessen our respect for the 1st Ammendment.
free speech - May I suggest learning the spelling of "Amendment" before commenting on the amendment's meaning?
You are missing the obvious point. The first amendment does not apply in a private business' website. Because they offer you the privilege of posting your comments does not mean you have a right to post your comment. You have the right to stand outside the MC and blabber to homeless people. You have the right to start your own blog. You have the right to print your own newspaper. You DO NOT have ANY inherent right to post anything on a private business' website.
Hell, if that we the case, I'd demand a daily column on the front page. Don't hold down my free speech, man. Rage against the frickin' machine!
Hayshaker,
You do have the right to harass free speech (the blogger)by pointing out that he misspelled a word. However it is rather pathetic that you did so. Make your argument and please stop harassing those of us who can't spell and type. It is hateful. I am surprised Bernie allowed it...
Wise ass. :-)
Hi Bernie!
Retired Allentown teacher here. I do go to the Morning Call Forum. What I have found is, most people who post there do seem to be venting. It's a VERY negative place. It's a place where we play 'one-upsmanship' It's a place where (under the guise of anonymity) we display our true being.
The IronPigs mascot thing going on right now is astonishing.
The original name, and then the name change, has demonstrated to me there is an incredible amount of racism present in the Allentown area.
In my opinion, the team did the right thing by going with something less incendiary for its mascot name.Who needs all the venom the original name has caused, now or in the future?
Yet, the free-wheeling Morning Call Forum HAS taught me something, so I believe the format has a value of sorts. Unfortunately, that Forum has taught me this community has a serious problem.I don't think I would have learned the same lesson if responses were sanitized by moderators beforehand.
Does this make any sense?
Retired Allentown teacher!
Nice to hear from you. What you say makes sense, but what that reader forum has taught you is wrong. From that forum, you can quickly reach the conclusion that the LV is Klan central. But amazingly, you'll find the exact same behavior on other reader forums in other areas of the country. I noted them on my post.
Although anyone has a first amendment right to stand on a streetcorner and spew hate, it should not be tolerated by a media outlet that is really interested in what its readers think. Most people who read the comments there won't bother to post at all.
I do believe the MC boards is the pulse of the community, good and bad, yet empty tin cans make the most noise. I have been around on the net and have learned that nut cases and Hate merchants are everywhere . I say give them a microphone and see them hang themselves with the cord. They need a host to feed off of and giving them attention, often gives them Power.In my experience, I have compiled some quotes that describe many of the experience.
" the more you stur or disturb shit, the more it stinks"
unknown
" some people relish a useless argument the way a dog relishes a "new stink". to roll around in" unknown
This is a classic
" the whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves but wiser people so full of doubts"
Bertrand Russell
The mcall comments section has made me crazy for a long time. I agree with your assessment.
So if the MC decides it will pick what it wants to delete and not delete, it's their business..because...it's their business!
BO when you get a wild hair you go nuts! Racism and bigotry is truely offensive but we are adults and I have read on these MC forums where folks are called on it by other posters.
The EE threads are a joke, the MC threads are not totally Racist, actually I feel like there are a lot of lonely people who use annonymity to be the person they can't be in person.
You say R.Angle is not a racist because you know him. Frankly, so do I and I agree, most of what he does is for effect even though he overdoes it and can be down right nasty. Yet, how can we blame someone for saying no he is anti-semetic or bigoted, based on some of his old antics.
If the Call wants to shut down the blog, I agree it's their business. I do worry that folks who rightfully are suspicious of their Government and 'the man' will be silenced.
Rapidly rapping out type does misspell words...the beauty u ignorant thug- freedom to speak means freedom to err.
Hi FREE Speech, I was refering to your statements that Berks and Lehigh (and Northampton) counties have a strong German heritage that many of them were and are Nazi. I feel you are very wrong. Naziism did not even exist before 1930 and most Germans that settled here in this wonderful area were here long before that. There are NO Nazis here now, just Neo-Nazis, which are nothing but skinheads and KKK wannabes. In other words, kids with too much time on their hands. These are the same kids who will go into a school and kill someone. It has nothing to do with the third reich. The number of Nazis in this area or the whole country may have been 1 on 100,000. There were far more comunists in the 1950's than there were ever Nazis in the WWII era. And I respect freedom of speech very much, Just ask Bernie. We have a much bigger problem now. Nazis are old hat... how about today with all the drugs and the ganga and the guns.... and I mean stolen handguns. There is no stupid gun law you can pass that will make these teen age thugs hand over their guns when they are gangland and pimp wannabees. How in the world can we solve this new plague?? The Bloods, Cripts, Latin Kings. They are taking over the whole area. You had your 2 cents worth and so did I. Thanks.
I made no such suggestion regarding Pennsylvania Germans. My family includes them. I simply sited the historical fact that nazis and their sympathizers existed in this region. And they still do in Berks where there is an active group.
Like many in the politically correct movement made the leap from factoid to general smear. See the ruckus about "pork chop" a very good PA German delicacy when accompanied by saurkrat...into some anti Hispanic slur???!!!
Some bad followers of Christianity, Islam, Hindu, etc....did bad things through the centuries==does not make all followers/believers bad.
However, this is the game muzzles of free speech want to make....
I must say that I have not heard the term porkchop be used as a racial thing since perhaps 1974. I thought it was long gone. Some one in just the last few days wrote a very good letter to the editor to the express times. He basicly said how can the young children of today ever grow up not being racist if their parents keep bringing it up?? A 3 or 4 year knows nothing of racism untill he is taught that by his parents. Just as Easton buried the N wprd that Pork chop word should have been buried too. I havent heard that slang since 1974.. the problem is, now there are tousands of young people who never heard it before and now they know it. And some are going to use it. River says.."bigotry is hereditary, you get it from your parents"
River I agree with you, for a change. However, I have heard every epithet racial,ethnic, gay etc...recently like in last 5 years. So, it is alive and well. Regretably....
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