Tonight's debate between VP Joe Biden and Congressman Paul Ryan will be loved by Democrats and Republicans alike, as both candidates appealed to their bases. But what about Independents? Undecideds?
I'm posting my thoughts before all the experts tell me what I'm supposed to think. Ryan's calm and factual approach will be appreciated more than the scoffing, laughing and constant interruptions from Biden. Some of those may come back to haunt Team Obama down the road.
Substantively, I'd call it a draw. Stylistically, Biden's energy might turn people off.
Today's one-liner: "The shortest way to the distinguishing excellence of any writer is through his hostile critics." Richard LeGallienne
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Thursday, October 11, 2012
73 comments:
You own views are appreciated, especially if they differ from mine. But remember, commenting is a privilege, not a right. I will delete personal attacks or off-topic remarks at my discretion. Comments that play into the tribalism that has consumed this nation will be declined. So will comments alleging voter fraud unless backed up by concrete evidence. If you attack someone personally, I expect you to identify yourself. I will delete criticisms of my comment policy, vulgarities, cut-and-paste jobs from other sources and any suggestion of violence towards anyone. I will also delete sweeping generalizations about mainstream parties or ideologies, i.e. identity politics. My decisions on these matters are made on a case by case basis, and may be affected by my mood that day, my access to the blog at the time the comment was made or other information that isn’t readily apparent.
Biden was obviously appealing to his base. They needed a "pep talk" after the abysmal performance by Obama in Denver. However, he did not win any I votes with his rude and arrogant demeanor. He actually appeared to be a little nuts. Maybe hebephrenia. But his smirking, laughing, interruptions were very disrespectful of his opponent. He behaved himself against Palin because he would have been perceived as a bully and would have lost women votes. Ryan was a polite, energetic, confident young man being treated with distain by a lifetime politician known for his insults and gaffes. I don't think Biden won over any undecideds. Ryan on the other hand may have won some I votes who were unfamiliar with him and questioned his maturity. He was FAR more mature than Biden tonight!
ReplyDeleteBernie, You're brave to post this and correct that it is nearly a draw. Biden's smirking makes it 51/49 for Ryan.
ReplyDelete11:28, Your description of Biden is what I could not convey what I disliked about Grucela in the Business Matters television episode. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I have been in the company of Joe Biden on many occasions, most recently an invite in July to a talk at the White House. In all my times in his company, he always acts like that.
Wow! I've never met the guy, but believe you. My sense is he is an old school pol, and people like me are not really bothered by that. Truth be told, I actually like it. But to the younger voters who are undecided, Ryan was better stylistically.
ReplyDeleteFor example, I don't think Biden should have been laughing when the possibility of Iran going nuclear was under discussion. I can kinda' see where he was going, but still think it can send the wrong message to many people.
ReplyDeleteImagine how that type of behavior is going to play out on an overseas' newscast?
ReplyDeleteSlight edge to Ryan. Mostly because he had a cooler head.
ReplyDeleteI think the moderator let biden get away with too much of his antics.
As usual, I'm still waiting for someone to truthfully answer questions and tell us what the plan is.
It is hard for an experienced statesman not to laugh at the teabagger gibberish.
ReplyDeleteSpoken like a true partisan. You're already in the tank. The question is how this plays with the undecideds? Do you think they appreciate your attempts at vilification?
ReplyDeleteThe first impression was Biden was the stronger candidate but his constant laughter and interrupting got old. Ryan never got a chance to explain his parties positions due to Biden's ploys.
ReplyDeleteHopefully people are smart enough to pick up on this. Obama had his chance and in his debate, couldn't describe or defend his own policies.
Regardless, I am calling an upset, or close to it. I say the Northampton vs. Easton game is going down to the wire. It is a U'Pick'em.
ReplyDeleteRyan diffused the "47%" issue very well and, for those who stuck with it until the end, nailed it in his closing:
ReplyDelete"We're not going to blame others".
Four years later, all the girlymen have is "We inherited a mess".
That broken record is now annoying a majority.
-Clem
Biden looked like a dementia sufferer yelling at kids to get off his lawn. This thing is over. Its been for a while. I think Americans were very reluctant to turn our their first black president, given our history, and despite Obama's poor job performance. Biden hurt Obama tonight. Dodging serious interviews for weeks was not a good warm up strategy. The isolation and protection have made the incumbents rusty.
ReplyDeletePretty sure undecided voters won't like that Ryan endorsed the 2005 Social Security privatization plan that he authored. He defended letting young people take money out of SS , aka the revenue stream for current retirees.
ReplyDeleteAs a younger voter, I love that idea. Might as well get it now, before it gets abused and is all gone.
ReplyDeleteAgreed @12:48
ReplyDeleteThanks Geeting !!
\
ReplyDeleteHere is the true meaning of the Debate.
OBAMA...ONE BIG ASS MISTAKE AMERICA!
We still don't have a list of those deductions and little boy Ryan ducked the question over and over agin.
ReplyDeleteThe Romney-Ryan fiscal plan reminds me of Richard Nixon's "secret plan" to end the
Vietnam war. Once elected, we all learned the only secret was there was no plan.
"The Romney-Ryan fiscal plan reminds me of Richard Nixon's "secret plan" to end the
ReplyDeleteVietnam war"
YES! i thought it was only me...
I thought the debate was a push in my eyes. It really did not move me one way or another to any candidate.
ReplyDelete@geeting: I think the privatization of social security would be fantastic and if offered, i would absolutely jump at the chance to get out of this ponzi scheme
Biden was overbearing and NOT Presidential. Ryan clearly won the debate when one has to decide who would be the best choice to be President if something would happen. Biden is a classic I know what is best and you better do it type of guy. His whole persona is a turn off no matter the politics.
ReplyDeleteBiden was clearly not interested in listening - an essential need for communicating.
ReplyDeleteAs the night went on, I couldn't help but wonder if this is the way Biden always operates. It certainly didn't seem Presidential, or even Vice-Presidential.
I think this approach is an indication of why things are the way they are in Washington. It certainly explains the way ObamaCare and other measures were shoved down the throats of the American people.
To me, it was telling evidence that the Obama administration isn't interested in working with people who have differing viewpoints. Contrary to previous campaign rhetoric from the Obama camp, there doesn't appear to be any attempt to work together.
2:51 -
ReplyDeleteIf there's anything reminiscent of Nixon, it's the Obama administration's attempts to cover up the truth.
Libya is just the latest example, Fast & Furious is another.
i found it very boring ... biden was so rude , i could barely continue to watch and actually took a break ... if i could've went thru the tv i would punched him in the nose ...
ReplyDeleteUndecided voters probably weren't down for the in the weeds talk that most of the debate was.
ReplyDeleteIt was great for wonks on both sides but ultimately the take away from the debate will be Joe Biden's behavior.
Presentation is 90% of the sale.
It would be bad enough to have 4 more years of obama but even worse to have Biden and his smirknes/interupting/rude character personality along with that.
ReplyDeletePaul Ryan is not, I repeat NOT, prepared to be President. His apparent unfamiliarity with issues of national security in Afghanistan were striking.
ReplyDeleteThat's what matter in this debate. Are these men capable of stepping into the Oval Office?
The answer for Senator Biden was clearly yes.
For example, I don't think Biden should have been laughing when the possibility of Iran going nuclear was under discussion. I can kinda' see where he was going, but still think it can send the wrong message to many people.
ReplyDeleteThe message it sent was that Congressman Ryan is woefully under-informed on matters of classified foreign policy. The Vice President was incredulous at the ridiculous statements.
I'm a bit too young to remember if the Carter administration and supporters where this undignified at the end of his run. Carter seems to get good grades as a decent guy, despite a failed president. Bush Sr. is largely the same. I get the feeling it had to do with their dignity in losing. Obama will go down as both failed and nasty if he and his don't lose with a bit more dignity, than shown by Biden last night.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete@geeting: I think the privatization of social security would be fantastic and if offered, i would absolutely jump at the chance to get out of this ponzi scheme
And do you know what would be really awesome, bro? If we had an epic economic collapse like in 2008 3 days before you turned 65. That would be, like, totally awesome!
All the post game is centered on Biden's behavior. That means he likely lost. He was so wired, he looked like he snorted a couple of lines of something before going on. Ryan's calm made Biden look old and crazy, which he kind of is.
ReplyDelete@ 2:51
ReplyDeleteForgive me if I am wrong, but did Nixon not put in place the system of "Vietnamization" that did get us out of Vietnam? The only reason he wasn't President when the withdraw was actually complete was because he resigned.
To me, it was telling evidence that the Obama administration isn't interested in working with people who have differing viewpoints.
ReplyDeleteThis statement is utterly astounding.
“The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.” ~Mitch McConnell, Senate Minority Leader, (R-Ky.), October 2010
The GOP denied Obama any chance at being a bipartisan President. He was our best shot too. The other African-Americans at Harvard hated Obama because he gave equal weight to conservative arguments in the Harvard Law Review.
If there was any complaint louder on the left than others it was that he was TOO conducive to the other side and allowed his policies to be wrecked.
Clear winner last night was moderator's Democrat-connected EX husband. Yikes.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say Paul hasn't any experience to be President, especially on foreign matter; wasn't that Obama's platform when he originally ran? "Vote for a fresh new face!" Not old school poltics like what Obama/Biden are trying to shove down our throats without even listening or compromise. You have to vote for it tosee what's in it!
ReplyDelete@9:53
ReplyDeleteAnd do you know what would be really awesome, bro? If we had an epic economic collapse like in 2008 3 days before you turned 65. That would be, like, totally awesome!
And what makes you think i would not be prepared for that contingency? Diversification is the key, although i was hurt like everybody else in 2008, it certainly did not kill me like the other sheep who need a nanny government to protect them. How is that social security purchasing power helping out right now? It isnt.
Because your economic expertise is indicative of ALL young people you'd force into your vision of social security. Clearly, if you are under 30, you are inordinately capable of diversifying your portfolio.
ReplyDeleteIt's all about YOU, bro!
@10:29
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think i am under 20, or even under 30? It is a question of who can govern better their financial future, you or the government? Believe it or not, there are individuals who do not need to be protected by the government.
People should be allowed the choice to opt out of funding a scheme in which they will never receive the full benefits from and be allowed to manage their own future. If they fail, they fail.
There was a poll of independents..Biden won that handily..very few independents commenting in this blog..Biden's constant scoffing and smiling was an attempt by him to point out how ridiculous Ryan's remarks generally were..Ryan's closing was far better but Biden did a much better job in making his argument..All doesnt matter..Where Ohio goes , goes the country..Romney is, has, and will be losing Ohio and the election..They are still trying to stop people from voting early there ( this cheating is so pathetic it's almost hilarious) but the ones that have so far have gone two to one for Obama..Romney, the draft dodger, is toast..Just plain toast!!
ReplyDelete9:57, No question that Mitch McConnell is a blatant partisan. But there's also no question that Obama has broken his promise to work with both sides. There are numerous examples of this at politifact and truthcheck. What makes it especially troublesome to me is that Obama d to reach across the aisle, but did not. his experience at Harvard Law Review is one reason why I voted for him first time around. So naturally, I am disappointed.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/mar/05/barack-obama/obama-hypocrite-reconciliation/
11:38,
ReplyDeleteIt was 50%of uncommitted voters, according to one CNN poll. That's not what I call a hands down win.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57531059/poll-biden-takes-debate-over-ryan-uncommitted-voters-say/
In the first presidential debate, the MSM was doing its best to present Obama as the winner, so I would not take one poll of 50% as meaning much of anything. In my view, Biden's scoffing, laughing and interruptions will hurt him.
"And do you know what would be really awesome, bro? If we had an epic economic collapse like in 2008 3 days before you turned 65. That would be, like, totally awesome!"
ReplyDeleteAnd herein lies the problem with attempting to teach retarded dogs any tricks. Most Americans are investors and are keenly aware of balancing risk and time horizon when investing. Most have gone through that curious HR exercise of deciding how to distribute their investment according to different risk portfolios.
Those who have unsustainable, defined pension plans don't seem capable of grasping this. And that's exactly their defense: that they are too stupid to manage money. Given current government finances, we already knew this.
I am amazed that more attention has not been given to the impact that Biden's behavior will have on undecided women. Biden's dripping hubris, alternating fake charm and then derisive chuckling and finger wagging bullying to BOTH Ryan and the Martha, was repulsive. I especially felt for Martha. He came across as a very clear "type" that women run into all the time as we try to make our way in a man's world, namely your standard issue, narcissistic and likely sexist fraud who thinks he can manipulate his way around honest dialogue by intimidation and condecension - and that we are all too dumb to see it - yuck! I really never thought of him this way before last night. And, as a girlfriend said to me today, it seems a similar strain to the Obama contempt in the last debate. Anyway, I wonder if us women are having a stronger negative reaction to Biden's arrogance than the mostly male media comprehends.
ReplyDeletef you are still there, what did you think of Martha? I liked the way she handled herself. Some say she was pro-Obama, but i thought she was fair.
ReplyDeleteI think Martha did well and was the winner. She is one brave women reporter. I dont think she is pro Obama in a political sense. I think she gets it. She has seen America in action and the positive effects of this administration's thoughtful and stategic policy has had.
DeleteI think you comment proves the bias that many saw.
DeleteFor an alternate viewpoint, maybe the female reporter who was raped by a mob during Obama's Arab Spring should talk about the "positive effects of this administration's thoughtful and strategic policy". Or maybe the Libyan ambassador can be reached through a medium.
Did we really need an hour and a half debate to confirm that Joe Biden is a jackass?
ReplyDeleteI think any 20 or 30 something who's been in that patronizing situation with a cranky, disrespectful older person was probably turned off by Biden.
ReplyDeleteI thought Biden looked typically pugnacious and Ryan had too much hair gel. My 29 year old daughter said Biden looked mean and unreasonable and she really liked Ryan's hair. Go figure.
Martha Radich lost some control, but Biden's boorishness caught everybody by surprise and, unfortunately for the incumbents, is all most are discussing today. She did zing Biden out of the gate with a tough Libya question and Biden reacted poorly before attempting, unsuccessfully, to change the subject on her. She made him look like a typical political bullshitter.
Ryan looked shaken at first, but settled in and likely won more independents by simply not being Biden. I thought Ryan would be more impressive. Perhaps it was how distracting Biden was. Ryan didn't win. Biden lost.
9:57, No question that Mitch McConnell is a blatant partisan. But there's also no question that Obama has broken his promise to work with both sides. There are numerous examples of this at politifact and truthcheck. What makes it especially troublesome to me is that Obama d to reach across the aisle, but did not. his experience at Harvard Law Review is one reason why I voted for him first time around. So naturally, I am disappointed.
ReplyDeleteDid you expect Obama to keep going across the aisle to be derided and humiliated by the GOP? Of course not. That's not a leader. Eventually, one needs to lay the law and lead.
I'd still contend that dropping the key piece of his signature legislation was the biggest bipartisan move of the last 12 years.
In the first presidential debate, the MSM was doing its best to present Obama as the winner,
ReplyDeleteC'mon now. That's just a ridiculous comment not born out by the facts.
And herein lies the problem with attempting to teach retarded dogs any tricks. Most Americans are investors and are keenly aware of balancing risk and time horizon when investing. Most have gone through that curious HR exercise of deciding how to distribute their investment according to different risk portfolios.
ReplyDeleteThose who have unsustainable, defined pension plans don't seem capable of grasping this. And that's exactly their defense: that they are too stupid to manage money. Given current government finances, we already knew this.
No, the problem is your laughable definition of the word "most".
12:14 - You have an awfully low opinion of Martha Raddatz if you think she is intimidated by Joe Biden.
ReplyDeleteNow it's "Obama's Arab Spring"
ReplyDeleteOy vay.
He embraced it, encouraged it, and allowed it to happen.
ReplyDeleteBernie, all your posting did was confirm that this is as much a teabagger gatering place as the Copperhead Bar, is a teagger watering hole.
ReplyDeleteI don't think any real undecidedes are posting here. The anti-Obama sentiment here statred well bhefore he took office. The pictures of him with the bone through his nose has been a teabagger favorite since 2008.
As to last night, only wonks get into VP debates, people vote for the President. At this point it is Romney's to lose.
As to "reaching across the isle", when Romeny "reaches" to the Dems in Congress and they disagree bnt he has the maj of Rep's to push through his plans, does that mean he failed to be bi-partisan or just that those dirty democrats don't agree with our Presdient?
We have seen this behavior since Reagan. As the far right has possesed the Republican Party and hope of real bi-partisan efforts have dimminshed. The teabaggers themselves, throught their surrogates on Fox, hate moderates. Their idea of a moderate is someone who always agrees with them.
So, if we have a Presdient Romney, other than a few folks making a Hell of a lot more money and the deficit growng even larger, I doubt much will change. Even the "bad guys" will remain the same to the teabaggers.
Thank you for an accurate display of all the love, warmth and actual TOLERANCE that exists in the progressive left.
Delete
ReplyDeleteBiden was over-dosed on his Medication.
ReplyDeleteDEBATE Meaning......
OBAMA.. One Big Ass Mistake America!!!!!
Anon 4:24, Instead of attacking the poster why not refute their facts. That is the real problem with the extreme far right. You have a problem with any factual information not spoon fed to you from the Murdoch empire.
ReplyDeleteBy the way I love the tolerance and respect from teabgger 4:57. Good job!
ReplyDeleteVague answers by Ryan. No details. Empty Suit.
ReplyDeleteTranslation: I'm a partisan Democrat so nothing Ryan would say mattered to me.
ReplyDeleteDude, we all saw it. Ryan acquitted himself well. Both he and Biden were very knowledgeable.
Ryan still could not give details on a 5 point plan. Say one thing on the campaign trail, say another at a debate.
DeleteAll the hate here on this blog and no partisan Republican commemts?Really...Dude?
"Did you expect Obama to keep going across the aisle to be derided and humiliated by the GOP?"
ReplyDeleteActually, I expect him to keep his word.
Of course there are partisan R comments, just as there are partisan D comments. You both insist your guy won. The rest of us think you're all a little daft.
ReplyDeleteNot going to read any of the comments - because I am too hung over...Some of the comments I heard from the chattering class on TV said that they thought The VP was disrespectful. I will grant that he was aggressive and passionate but I think that it was Mr. Ryan who was disrespectful because he kept calling Mr. Biden..Joe.. He should have referred to him as Mr. Vice President or The Vice President not Joe...Biden never called young Paul anything other than My Friend or Congressman Ryan. I think Paul Ryan showed disdain and disrespect for the office he wishes to succeed to.
ReplyDeleteThe so called "Tea Baggers" are the people that will save this country at the end of the day. No matter any other reasons, the candidates who proclaim that they will work to STRENGTHEN our defense and position around the globe has my vote!
ReplyDelete"ONE BIG ASS MISTAKE AMERICA"
ReplyDeletePerhaps if Obama honored in his campaign promises in 2008 ...
... such as the famous pledge to cut the national deficit in half.
Maybe if Obama had not ADDED 6.0 TRILLION DOLLARS OF NEW DEBT ...
... 0-bama would get more respect than Democrats ever showed George Bush.
WHY IS GITMO STILL OPEN?
I have deleted a number of anonymous personal attacks, as well as some repetitive comments. No need to make the same point ad nauseum.
ReplyDeleteIf you think we "Tea Baggers" are not playing nice NOW ...
ReplyDelete... just wait unitl we have to put up with ANOTHER FOUR YEARS of the f---inig Progressive Liberal Dummyrats and all their wonderfulness.
REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS SO COOL TO MAKE ASSASINATION BOOKS AND MOVIES ABOUT BUSH?
So, in other words, you think Biden was serious when he called Ryan "friend".
ReplyDeleteHa ha.
Everything is slanted to the Democrats, as always.
Happy Teabagging!
In other words, Bernie deleted any comments not teabagger approved. Lehigh Valley Ramblings the new Copperhead Bar!
ReplyDeleteWeekend troll, Actually, the comments deleted were posted by a conservative. And I delete criticism of my comment policy.
ReplyDelete