Here in the Keystone State, if you'd like to carry a concealed weapon, you need to get a permit from the County Sheriff. He conducts a background check, and in Northampton County, that includes contacting your employer.Council member Lamont McClure last night questioned this procedure. "As an employer, if you get a call about one of your employees who is applying for a concealed carry permit, I can see how that would have a chilling effect on people" seeking this license. McClure suggested there are other ways to do a background check.
County Exec John Stoffa replied that he's asked the Sheriff to disclose, on the application, that employers will be contacted.
I'm with the Sheriff on this one. Let's say someone is seriously depressed or is acting strangely. Chances are that his boss has noticed. If the Sheriff stops calling, and some wacko comes to work and starts blasting away, we'd take little consolation in knowing that this lunatic's rights were protected. Besides, it's not a right, Lamont. That's why a permit is needed.
What do you think?
No. No, and No again. That is a clear infringement on someones right to privacy. What the Hell does your employer have to do with anything.
ReplyDeleteThis practice should be ended by Stoffa tomorrow at 8:01 AM
Veritas
first of all, notice that it is a CONCEALED carry permit. In PA it is perfectly legal to carry a weapon on your person as long as it is in full view to the public, you do not need a permit under that circumstance
ReplyDeleteNext it is not the employers right to know if someone wants a carry permit, however it is his business so he can ban the handguns from his place of business and require tht weapons be stored off premises or in a locked vehicle during office hours.
Simple
This is a privacy violation that won't protect anybody in actual practice, even though rules like this feel so good when passed.
ReplyDeleteSure, the boss may have noticed strange behavior. But then again, the boss may NOT have noticed. Maybe the boss is seriously anti-gun and decides to forget about a promotion or pay-raise for the applicant.
ReplyDeleteA boss is JUST a boss. He/She is not an overlord, and I do not see why a boss would have the ability to say "Yeah" or "Nay" to a permit. Would you be OK with your boss granting you permission to drive? Or have children? Or buy alcohol? A thorough background check can be accomplished without infringing upon someone's workplace privacy.
PS - I hate guns, do not have one and wish legislation mandating tougher gun laws would be passed. But giving someone's boss the reins on this is not the answer.
I should explain the law does not require that the employer be contacted, but the Sheriff is supposed to do some kind of bckground check.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the Sheriff works uder Stoffa, he has a certain amount of independence and I do not think Stoffa can overrule the sherff on this point.
The right to bear arms is constitutional and as such is a private decision. Notifying an employer is a violation of that right.Too many employers would use that as a means to hire or fire.Especially in Pa where unless you are union,you have no job security.So if your boss is anti-gun you stand a good chance for him to use that as a means for firing you or some crazy thing.And I personally do not like guns,but believe in the Constitution
ReplyDeleteLooks like I'm out on a limb in thinking it is OK to contact an employer over a concealed carry pemit.
ReplyDeletei think employers have a right to know if people are carrying weapons into the work place. personally, every employer I ever had prohibited weapons on the grounds. that includes in the car. this is grounds for immediate termination.
ReplyDeletehaving a permit, however, doesn't say anything to me about the person with it. to me, it is a value neutral piece of paper, no different than a drivers license.
Bernie -
ReplyDeleteIt is wrong to contact the employer about a concealed carry permit.
First of all, the concealed carry permit is valid for 5 years. Presumably the sheriff is calling the employer upon the initial application, but I'm not sure if the sheriff makes another call upon license renewal. Either way, that's a pretty small window of time for the sheriff to happen upon someone who is suddenly "seriously depressed or is acting strangely".
More importantly, the application for a concealed carry permit does not prevent the applicant from purchasing, possessing, or carrying in plain view (as a previous posted pointed out) a firearm.
I truly doubt that in the hypothetical situation you created (depressed employee, acting strangely), that applying for a concealed carry permit is the route the employee (who wants to do harm) takes.
If you want to make the argument that employers should be contacted when someone applies for a concealed carry permit, that's a pretty slippery slope. Should employers also be contacted by the government if they haven't paid their income taxes? After all, employees who aren't paying their tax bills might be more likely to embezzle. I'm guessing that most of us don't want our employers having access to our tax records.
The permitting process is between the citizen and the government. The employer has no right to be notified.
P.S. - Studies have shown that states passing laws allowing concealed carry of firearms have seen a decrease in crime and the crime rate for concealed carry holders is far below that of the general population.
Statistically speaking, the hypothetical employer you cite is better off having more concealed carry holders as employees.
monkey momma said...
ReplyDeleteI hate guns, do not have one and wish legislation mandating tougher gun laws would be passed.
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Monkey Momma -
Contrary to what some of our politicians want us to believe, we have more than adequate gun laws at the state and federal level. What we often lack is adequate enforcement of those laws.
Next time you are voting for judge, DA, and other such positions, make sure those running are committed to throwing the book at those who commit crimes with guns.
Anon 9:19,
ReplyDeleteI appear to be losing this argument. I uderstand your points. Actually, the IRS often does contact an employer when someone is behind on his taxes. They can take part of the paycheck. In the case of an independent contractor, they can take it all.
But I know how chilling that is amd have seen it happen in my line of work.
Bernie as far as you're being out on a limb, I have a saw and I am cutting. If an employee has a problem and wants to play havoc, a concealed weapon has no bearing.
ReplyDeleteBob Romancheck
"I hate guns, do not have one and wish legislation mandating tougher gun laws would be passed."
ReplyDeleteI do not own any guns at this time. I did, stored them at a friend's house because I did not want them near my kids and he had a big piece of land that we could practice on. We were both in the Army together. Unfortunately, my friend was arrested (long story) and all those guns were confiscated. Never got them back.
I do not hunt and am a lousy shot, but think some of these weapons are works of art. I was at a recent dinner for sportsmen run by Jerry Seyfried and half of the people there ended up winning a gun.
You have small children, so you go on hating guns. Thse accidents are horrible when they happen.
Bob, That's OK. I'm used to losing arguments.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Bob. If someone wants to come into work and kill people, the last thing he's going to do is apply for a CCW. He's just going to load a shotgun, go into the place, and do it. People who apply for CCWs are in general good-natured people who want to do things the right way and protect themselves legally.
ReplyDeleteI managed a store in downtown Easton in the 80s and was robbed at gunpoint. In the days following the terrifying incident, I was shocked by the number of years-long, regular customers who showed me sympathy - and also lifted their shirts and jackets to show me their concealed guns. Yet, none of them had ever threatened me with harm, like the thugs who were quickly apprehended by EPD with their unregistered weapons. We should always err on the privacy side of those who wish to legally obtain and carry their weapons. They're not the problem; not by a long shot.
ReplyDeleteThe British are coming! The right to bear arms is an antiquated law that was created at a time when we had no standing Army and were under the threat of invasion by the British. Citizens were encouraged to bear arms to protect us from invasion. Last time I checked, we have an Army, England has no interest in invading us, and we have enough missiles to destroy the world 500 times over every ten minutes for a week. Why do you need to bring a gun to work. There are other antiquated laws (especially in the Bible) like stoning people to death who work on a Sunday, but you don't see me murdering my neighbor because he cuts his grass after Meet The Press. Times change and people need to change with them.
ReplyDelete11:50, tell your change story to the dead rancher's family in Arizona, or anyone sentenced to live in the increasingly violent Eastons and Allentowns of the world. Per Posse Comitatus, the Army can't help you in these dangerous places. You must live in a nice, safe neighborhood where lawful gun ownership and cutting one's grass are an effortless comparison.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said:
ReplyDelete"Why do you need to bring a gun to work."
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Believe it or not, many people like to be protected on the trip to and from their workplace and actually make stops on the way to/from work. They should not be disarmed simply because they are traveling to/from work.
By the way, this is not to say that employers can't have a policy banning carrying weapons while at the workplace, but I believe there must be a provision that storing one's licensed weapon in your car (in the employer's parking lot) is not grounds for dismissal.
In fact, I think there was a recent court decision in Florida against Disney for just such a set of circumstances.
Bernie -
ReplyDeleteIn today's day and age, we have more to be worried about than a law-abiding citizen carrying a concealed weapon.
The depressed employee acting strangely could just as easily pick up a few cans of gasoline, propane or other such items and do far more damage.
For the record, whether I'm facing a deranged fellow employee or a deranged outsider - I'd rather have my concealed weapon with me when it happens.
Your argument falls flat right out of the box:
ReplyDeleteLet's say someone is seriously depressed or is acting strangely. Chances are that his boss has noticed.
Right... and if I am in the state of mind you are not-so-subtly implying, the first thing I will do is to legally request a CCP.
Besides, having my colleagues know I was carrying would have probably led to never-ending arguments over whether I should be allowed to or not, or other time-wasters. Not at all productive.
And whether it's in in my belt, under my suit jacket or on my ankle, it's my business, unless I use it to defend someone OTHER than myself.
All that gun control advocates would do if they succeded is make it harder for the law-abiding citizen.
ReplyDeleteI am not at all surprised that Stoffa does the politically correct thing and allows this practice to continue. The Sheriff is appointed by the Executive and under the Executive branch. Stoffa is a gutless wonder who is taking the path of least resistance.
ReplyDeleteTypical behavior of a lifetime bureaucrat. I'm glad councilman McClure brought this to the peoples attention. I hope he and Council ask the Sheriff to explain his rationale. I am sure it is just a practice that became institutionalized over the years.
The many posters before me have it right. The last person to be worried about are the citizens that request CWP's, its the thugs and low-life's that don't even bother getting a driver's license, do you think they have a concealed weapons permit? Hell, walk down the street in any city and most of the low-life's are carrying illegal. Sure disarm the law abiding citizen.
If Stoffa doesn't have the balls then County Council must end this discrimination before the County gets sued.
Assclowns
Let's get one thing straight. If you are going to write an article on your blog or comment, know the subject of what you wish to talk about.
ReplyDeleteThe Sheriff does not issue permits. Permits, or more specifically, Sportsmens permits, which are issued by the PA Game Commission, allows hunting with a handgun.
The Sheriff issues a license to carry firearms, not permits. If you are going to talk about something, get it right.
I DO NOT AGREE with an employer being contacted regarding an application for a firearms permit.
ReplyDeleteThe law is clear what disqualifies an applicant to be denied a permit to carry and what recourse said person has to appeal the Sheriff's decision on such.
I simply would NOT list my employer or write refused and let the Sheriff deny the request for permit. Take it to the next level and have the Judge overturn the Sheriff's denial so long as everything else checks out and they are otherwise clear.
Or the policy could be...
An employer should/could be listed but NOT called.
You can gather information regarding the applicant from criminal background checks, possibly calling references and the local PD about your character.
That is my OPINION on this.
Fred Schoenenberger
It should be evident to the public who is and who is not carrying a weapon! An arm band would be nice or a name tag that screams..I've Got A Gun On Me! You want to carry..then be loud and proud about it..not secretive.
ReplyDeleteHow does HIPA laws deal with employers giving medical/mental health info to anyone?
ReplyDeleteGood old ultra-liberal Dave weighs in. Screw law abiding citizens but lets build hotels for drug addicts. At least you are consistent Dave.
ReplyDeleteDid the wild west cowboys hide their guns from view? All you wannabes emulate that persona so wear them where we can all see them ..and laugh at how silly you really look!
ReplyDeleteDave's like one of those nosy little school girls who just can't stand not knowing everything about everybody. Best to keep super smart privacy advocates like these guessing.
ReplyDeleteLet's stick to the subject. Save your personal attacks for council meetings.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe my employer should be notified about whether I have a License to Carry anymore than he should be notified which political party I belong to.
ReplyDeleteSome of the previous posts hit it spot on when they said it will not make a difference to a whacko if he gets a license or not.
I don't like tha fact that I had to get 2 references to get my license in my county (Lehigh). Suppose a person is not that social or he has just moved here? Does that mean he/she does not have the right to defend themselves? The test should be: Have you been in jail? Are you mentally stable and not on any mental medication?
Anyone who checks the stats can see that people who legally carry are one of the least threats to our society.
First off it is a license to carry not a concealed carry permit. Look it up. You have the right to carry in the open except in a first class city like Philly unless prohibited by the owner of the building. The employer is contacted to check the validity of the application. A liar can be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
ReplyDeleteThis says nothing about your right to own a weapon.
I Seriously suggest you all stop complaining before the new sheriff starts conducting detailed interviews of applicants and ALL their references. As the law states the Sheriff is well within his right to do that as well.
Keep complaining and things will just become more harsh.
Anon said:
ReplyDelete"Keep complaining and things will just become more harsh."
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Yes, be quiet and conform. Government knows what is best for you.
Just to clarify.(From paopencarry.org)
ReplyDelete§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.
No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
Also checked the Sherrif's right to check on refs. Didn't mention anything about employers.
Yes I will complain and give my opinion when asked. If you think people have irrational fears about losing their right to bear arms and defend themselves just take a look at what happened in New Orleans when the flood hit. Door to door confiscation of firearms.
That's not irrational fear. That's reality.
I got the living shit kicked out of me in this argument. I concede. Just don't shoot me.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry Bernie. You're in good company. President Obama put his foot in his mouth too, when he mentioned guns and Pennsylvania in the same sentence while campaigning. He learned, and so will you. This is Pennsylvania. A gun friendly state. It has the most members in the NRA than any other state. Whether you like it or not.
ReplyDeleteAs the political advisor James Carville once said, "Pennsylvania is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between."
Where in the law where it says that he has the right to do a background check says he cant check employer?
ReplyDeleteIt's is on the application written by the state police and subject to the background check. Im sorry you feel it shouldn't. On the bottom where you have to sign it makes a statement about making sure everything listed is correct.
If you lie about anything they will find it. I personally agree with all this since it keeps those scumbags that try to pull the wool over the sheriffs eyes from getting their LTC. And I bet there has been MORE than a few that lie about something as simple as employer.
I got the living shit kicked out of me in this argument. I concede. Just don't shoot me.
ReplyDeleteBernie, relax. The vast majority of all legal gun owners are no threat to you or any other law abiding person.
Now on the contrary, the vast majority of those who posses guns illegally are a real threat... just keep that in mind.