Today's one-liner: "The shortest way to the distinguishing excellence of any writer is through his hostile critics." Richard LeGallienne
Local Government TV
Tuesday, February 09, 2010
Over 25 Years, Public Sector Unions Increase 19% While Private Sector Drops 50%
41 comments:
You own views are appreciated, especially if they differ from mine. But remember, commenting is a privilege, not a right. I will delete personal attacks or off-topic remarks at my discretion. Comments that play into the tribalism that has consumed this nation will be declined. So will comments alleging voter fraud unless backed up by concrete evidence. If you attack someone personally, I expect you to identify yourself. I will delete criticisms of my comment policy, vulgarities, cut-and-paste jobs from other sources and any suggestion of violence towards anyone. I will also delete sweeping generalizations about mainstream parties or ideologies, i.e. identity politics. My decisions on these matters are made on a case by case basis, and may be affected by my mood that day, my access to the blog at the time the comment was made or other information that isn’t readily apparent.
The workforce of large-scale manufacturing in the US became unionized and the cost of labor skyrocketed. Jobs were moved off shore as a consequence, leading to unemployment and a dramatic decrease in quality of life for Americans. Now the public sector is becoming unionized. Unions destroy.
ReplyDeleteThe jobs would have moved offshore regardless of whether or not there were unions.
ReplyDeleteThe rise of the unions created the middle-class. The powers that be simply refuse to deal with an educated majority.
Point of fact. If private sector unions have dropped by 50%, why are companies still offshoring?
Your x-rays are read in India, your trinkets are made in China, your shirts are made in Pakistan and Indonesia - and the profits go to the top 2% - and will continue to do so until American workers decide stand up for themselves.
Unions have done a tremendous amount of good for our country as well as some harm.
ReplyDeleteAll in all, I am not looking forward to paying for the looming State Pension Crisis. Government workers get guaranteed pensions and lifetime health benefits well beyond what anyone average worker gets.
The last administration and legislature expanded benefits and set up a crisis of massive proportions for Pennsylvania.
The inequity must be fixed.
Public sector unions = instant Democrats on the dole.
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:18 - you're right to some extent, offshoring of jobs would (and continues) to occur regardless of unionization. Unions did (briefly) allow a percentage of unskilled laborers who otherwise would not have reached middle class income levels to do so (skilled laborers would have become members of the middle class regardless of unions and collective bargaining).
ReplyDeleteBill - you are correct that back in the late 19th early 20th century that unions did good by creating better working conditions and fair wages. As you point out, more recently public sector unions have created unsustainable and disasterous pension obligations for you and I, and our children. Take a look at Greece and other heavily unionized European countries to see what the end game of public sector unions looks like.
I love some of these statements. The most hilarious is that unions created unsustainable and disastrous pension plans, as if they formed a union and all their wishes were granted Someone had to give them these pensions ! Governor Tom Ridge, a Republican for those who are not aware, boosted many pensions for public workers in 2001..Much of this will have to be paid for in the next few years. Give me a break already about how union pensions are somehow self made..
ReplyDeleteThat's why we need to make it much much easier for people to join unions in the private sector - so they can have equally good job security.
ReplyDelete"This will happen when local governments balance budgets on the backs of nonunion workers."
ReplyDeleteBernie -
Give me a break.
This is what will happen when sleazy politicians buy union support on the backs of the taxpayers.
Both of us are right.
ReplyDeleteOne glance at campaign finance reports tell us all that executives and mayors will readily take money from the unions with whom they negotiate contracts. And I have seen both counties provide lower salaries to their nonunion workforce than unions are able to negotiate.
Jon Geeting, I support unions and regatrd them as a necessary buffer for predatory employers, but that does not mean I support union thug tactics or browbeating fellow employees into joining a union.
ReplyDeleteThat's funny Bernie, I think Angle is necessary to a point but I do not support his thug tactics, or brow beatings of union workers. Point being you don't have to be union to be a thug browbeating bully.
ReplyDeleteAnd for the people that complain how much better off people in a union are, go get yourself a union job rather than complaining about it.
Angle certainly did not brow beat union workers. He did stand up to a bunch of thugs who invaded a council meeting one nioght and replace a democracy with mob rule. Do you remember that night? I recorded it and a link exists somewhere on this blog. I was very proud of Ron that night.
ReplyDeleteUnions are necessary and some of them are actually good. But they do not exist to make slaves out of taxpayers. They have to undertand that, in the public sector, we are the ultimate boss.
bernie, I read nothing in Jon's comments that would support brow-beating or bullying people into joining a union. You pulled something out of thin air. Jon wants to make it easier for people to JOIN a union, not make it easier to FORCE people into a union.
ReplyDeleteStick to what was said, not what was unsaid.
Jon Geeting said we need to make it much easier for people to join unions, as in let's do that card check thing. That has led to harassment and intimidation until someone joins a union. If you could come up w/ a way to make things easier w/o coercion, I'm all for it.
ReplyDeleteI have asked that that audio be put up on several occasions. I heard the tape, and Angle most certainly used thug tactics and name calling on a group of people that had every right to be at that meeting. Angle is the one who began to bad mouth the group simply for being there with t shirts on. Again council meetings are public, and if I am not mistaken the public is encouraged to attend and voice their concerns. They should not be bullied and called names simply for doing what they are entitled to do.
ReplyDelete"Jon Geeting said we need to make it much easier for people to join unions, as in let's do that card check thing. That has led to harassment and intimidation until someone joins a union. If you could come up w/ a way to make things easier w/o coercion, I'm all for it."
ReplyDeleteIf someone is being harassed and or intimidated they should go to the employer and advise them. There are strict guidelines that cover such tactics. The union is prohibited from such tactics, as are the employer. If someone is not educated on their rights they should then read up on them in order to prevent tactics from both sides.
That's nice. In the real world, employees are bullied both by unions and owners.
ReplyDeleteI believe the FLSA is fairly clear that it is prohibited from both sides. Personally I would not stand for it and I would take the proper steps to ensure that it won't happen to me or anyone else. Again if people educate themselves they are protected by the laws!!
ReplyDeleteDude, I was there and I know exactly what happened and the audio confimrs it. Your lynch mob assembled into council chambers and used fellow union thug, Charles Dertinger, to whip them up eeven more. Angle stood up to you, and made you look very foolish.
ReplyDeleteIt was a dark day in Northampton County, one I hope never to see repeated.
Geeting said: "That's why we need to make it much much easier for people to join unions in the private sector - so they can have equally good job security."
ReplyDeleteHe needs to connect the dots for me. I actually have some higher edication, but I can't figure out how a union will keep your job when the employer runs out of money trying to compete with China. And, it's not the employer who enabled this....it's every ordinary blue collar Joe who shops at WalMart
First I was not there. Secondly it is my understanding the workers had every right to be there. And when they tried to bring something to the attention of council they were verbally attacked by your bulldog. Again they had every right to be there and voice their concerns. Now if Dertinger used them for his own purpose that is on him, but I am sure Angle has done, and will do the same thing for his gain. Albeit it may not be a union he uses, but as long as he is a politician he will do it. Just as they all do.
ReplyDeleteThe real reason that public unions have grown so much is that the jobs for the most part can't be contracted out very well because of the PR disaster and political connection of the unions. Best of all, the jobs can't be sent overseas. Because the politicians don't want a bad image, they've had no reason to really try to control labor costs because they can just raise taxes to pay for it. Mayor Pawlowski actually stood up to the city unions and laid workers off when they wouldn't share the pain with the taxpayers. This is only because he had no choice.
ReplyDeleteIf you really want to worry, take a look at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/04/AR2010020404421.html
where the union has so much power that the politicians are contributing to the union's PAC.
Folks, the golden goose is being slaughtered by the public unions in PA and the pain because of gutless politicians pandering to the unions and feeding their own greed in the form of unnegociated pension increases comes home to roost and really hits your property taxes. These raises were never in the contract so they didn't have to be given.
Unions fought and many died so that America's could have a safe workplace with adequate salary. Look around the Lehigh Valley and see where the secure jobs with great pay and benefits reside. Now take a look at your tax bills. See any connection?
Anon 1:27, The union did have every right to be there. They even had every right to speak. But courtesy of the floor was over and Justice insisted on speaking out of turn, followed by several other union members, who disrupted the meeting. Some of them even got up and began approaching the dais in a threatening manner.
ReplyDeleteAngle stood up to these bullies, and I was very proud of him that day. he made it clear he works for the taxpayer, not them.
"I believe the FLSA is fairly clear that it is prohibited from both sides. Personally I would not stand for it ..."
ReplyDeleteThen there should be no need for any laws to make it easier to get into a union, right? Just educate people about the laws we have.
"But courtesy of the floor was over and Justice insisted on speaking out of turn, followed by several other union members, who disrupted the meeting."
ReplyDeleteTake out Justice and insert Angle and it sounds like a normal occurrence at a meeting to me. The meeting in question was very heated, and if I am not mistaken that is meeting the Dertinger called for CSF to resign. And here we are a year or so later and she is gone. I don't think they were far off base.
"Then there should be no need for any laws to make it easier to get into a union, right? Just educate people about the laws we have."
ReplyDeleteYou should know better than anyone, laws need to be in place for things to be done properly. Your knowledge of the laws and acts should tell you that. Laws are in place to protect the people. Both the employee and the employer. Unfortunately laws are needed. And it is up to the people to get educated about the laws. After all the very thing they complain about may be covered under said law.
Anon 2:01pm
ReplyDeleteThe unions are only doing what they think is best for their people. If it weren't for the unions people like Angle would be running wild in the county. Lets cut jobs here and cut jobs there. The unions protect people, but only to a point. Look at what is happening to Victalic.
Again, if you feel that the best paying jobs with the best benefits are mainly union jobs then consider these 2 points.
1) If that is the case then the unions are doing their job to provide as you say a safe workplace with adequate salary.
2) If as you say these are the best jobs in the Lehigh Valley maybe you should look into getting yourself one of said jobs. Also if you decide to get a job you will not be "forced" to join the union. You will only have to pay fair share and you will reap the benefits of all the other workers. Besides the ability to vote. You will receive the same representation as any other worker.
On a closing note it takes 2 sides to negotiate a contract. The fault is certainly that of the unions. Someone has to agree to the terms.
If you really want to worry, take a look at:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/04/AR2010020404421.html
Seems to me the Union is only doing what the Politician allow them to do. The bigger problem there should be the lengths the Politicians will go to get elected.
Anon 4:34,
ReplyDeleteThe meeting in which Coucil called on CSF to resign was the previous meeting. And Council exceeded its authority in doing that. You can attempt to justify what happened, because nobody liked her. But what happens when they turn around and ask you to resign? Maybe nobody likes you, either.
In the next meeting, there were actually two different unions present, and for some reason, the county workers still had a crowd on hand.
Courtesy of the floor was over, and Justice and several other union members loudly disrupted the meeting. There is no justification for that.
You may dislike Angle, but he is the elected representative of the Slate Belt District, and he speaks for them, not public sector unions. Justice's behavior was thuggish, and as I mentioned that night, all they needed was a rope.
When Angle retured home later that night, someone had shot one of his farm animals and his property as vandalized. Don't even try to justify the behavior that night.
Angle was doing his job, representing his district. The union was attempting to replace Northampton County government with mob rule. It was a dark day, and many of the people involved later told me they regretted their behavior.
"When Angle returned home later that night, someone had shot one of his farm animals and his property as vandalized. Don't even try to justify the behavior that night."
ReplyDeleteWow Bernie, now that was a Villa esque accusation. Unless you have proof that it was a part of the "mob" then I don't think you should make that comment.
"The unions are only doing what they think is best for their people. If it weren't for the unions people like Angle would be running wild in the county. Lets cut jobs here and cut jobs there."
ReplyDeleteAngle did not vote for the layoffs that threw everone in the union's embrace. That was union-friendly Reibman, remember?
And that's the whole point of my post. When a local gov't treats a non-union public sector emplyee like shit, which certainly happened in Northampton County, it drives them into the unions.
And in a local government like NC, a union should be unnecessary for at least half of the positions.
"Wow Bernie, now that was a Villa esque accusation. Unless you have proof that it was a part of the "mob" then I don't think you should make that comment."
ReplyDeleteI never said the lynch mob did it, but I'm pointing it out bc it is a startling coincidence. If I had proof, someone would have been arrested.
....And forgive me for mixing the 2 meetings, as I said I was not in attendance for either. And the audio that I heard was Angle name calling and making personal attacks at union members. The "mob" may have been out of line as you say, but that does not give "a representative of the Slate Belt District, and he speaks for them, not public sector unions" to start the name calling and personal attacks. Just as you say the "mob" was out of line that should not exclude Angle from blame either. I have a feeling we will need to just have to agree to disagree on who was right or wrong.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem with doing that. I think it is safe to say, or at least I am comfortable in saying that BOTH sides may have acted out of line at that meeting.
"I never said the lynch mob did it, but I'm pointing it out bc it is a startling coincidence. If I had proof, someone would have been arrested."
ReplyDeleteIt was certainly a statement leading towards blame. I know you don't like it done to you so please don't make things up.
"And that's the whole point of my post. When a local gov't treats a non-union public sector emplyee like shit, which certainly happened in Northampton County, it drives them into the unions.
ReplyDeleteAnd in a local government like NC, a union should be unnecessary for at least half of the positions."
It should be unnecessary, you are right. But what does the fact that more than half are unionized?
"Angle did not vote for the layoffs that threw everone in the union's embrace. That was union-friendly Reibman, remember?"
ReplyDeleteAnd what do you think will happen to the union jobs at Gracedale if Angle gets his way?
"It was certainly a statement leading towards blame. I know you don't like it done to you so please don't make things up."
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, but I made nothing up. Angle's home was vandalized that very night, and it should be noted. It proves nothing conclusively but you have to agree it's a pretty strange thing to see on that night of all nights.
I am sure he has his share of people that dislike him.
ReplyDelete"And what do you think will happen to the union jobs at Gracedale if Angle gets his way?"
ReplyDeleteNothing. There is a great deal of misinformation and fear beig mongered about that situation. The reality is that the county is in a world of financila trouble and needs to make changes. It has two white elephantts at Governor olf and at Bechtel, and Gracedale is thinning out.
It is being studied and it could very well be that there will be no changes at all. But what seems most likely, at this juncture, is that floors will be closed off a nd that human services offices will move from Bechtel and Wolf to Gracedale. Those buildings can then be sold when the economy improves and it will present some nonrecurrent revenue that will lessen or eliminate the need for a tax hike.
The staff at Gracedale will be slowly reduced by attrition if this is the solution that the county achieves.
Another point. You say half the county workforce is nonunion. I do not have the figures, but would like to know them.
Even assuming you are accurate, and you may be on that point, I still believe we have far too many unions.
NC has to deal w/ 11 different unions, and that's just ridiculous. All that leaves time for is constant negotiation as one contract ends and another comes due.
I believe all 11 unions and the county need to sit down and find some way to streamline. It would be in everyone's interest. Not only could economies of efficiency be realized by both county and union, but unions might find that human services has a little more tme to deal with grievances or in resolving matters before they get to that level.
11 unions obviously is not ideal in any situation. But the fact is the County has to respond to all grievances in a stated amount of time. I am not sure however that is a union problem.
ReplyDeleteAlso the County has to negotiate contracts for all the unions. Combining the unions is nearly impossible, due to the fact of the many different job classifications and descriptions.
I do think there are ways the unions can streamline, ie through medical benefits etc. But again due to the many different jobs and situations within the county it is difficult to have the same contract for multiple unions.
I can only hope that Gracedale will not be sold, and that the workers do not lose their jobs. I still believe misinformation or not that Angle is all for selling Gracedale...which will in turn cost people their jobs.
"One glance at campaign finance reports tell us all that executives and mayors will readily take money from the unions with whom they negotiate contracts. And I have seen both counties provide lower salaries to their nonunion workforce than unions are able to negotiate"
ReplyDeleteThe non-union employees are paid on a higher pay-scale than the union-employees. Accordingly, a 2.25% raise for non-union would be greater than a 2.25% increase for union (just an example). The pay scales for union are approximately $4,000 lower than non-union payscales for each grade.