It's coming. While we play at the beaches, Peak Oil has already reared its ugly head. We don't notice. Most of us have never experienced "meatless Tuesday," gas rationing, or suffered through a great depression. We live in a dream world of tax cuts, upscale malls and shiny credit cards. And it's hard to think about anything when we're sloppin' down at the Texas Roadhouse.But it's coming. When it hits, Peak Oil will turn our dream world into Nightmare on Elm Street. High pump prices will be the least of our troubles. Our food consumption depends heavily on our oil-dependent economy. How do you think we get those grapes from Chile? In addition to food, cheap oil is the driving force behind modern medicine, our water distribution and our high tech industry.
You might quibble about when, but it's coming. And we're not ready on any level - national, state or local.
In the Lehigh Valley, we are currently driving our 65 mph SUVs right over a cliff that will hurl us into worldwide depression. Local leaders refuse to face reality. The LVPC and Lehigh Valley Partnership clamor to widen Route 22, which will simply invite more driving. Instead of encouraging us to conserve fuel (and increase safety) by reducing our speed, limits are increased to 65 mph along Route 33. In the meantime, developers gobble up what little farmland is left, thanks to poor municipal planning in our fragmented municipalities. According to Lehigh County Redneck [this blog is deceased], traffic is so bad in Lower Macungie's "pedestrian community" that she must load her kids' bikes into a car and drive to a park if they want to ride.
It's coming, so what can we in the Lehigh Valley do? I'm no expert, but here's a few suggestions.
1. Elect leaders who recognize we have a problem, and are willing to do something about it. That's why I asked Dent and Dertinger to take a pledge against Big Oil money in their Congressional race. Northampton County Exec John Stoffa has proposed a world-class regional energy center that would explore needed alternative energy sources. Lehigh County Executive Don Cunningham has spoken of the need for "smart growth". Stoffa, Cunningham, and Allentown Mayor Ed Powlowski have all stressed the importance of regionalization. State Rep. Rich Grucela has proposed educational impact fees in new subdivisions, and State Rep. Bob Freeman has long advocated light rail in the Lehigh Valley.
2. Stop building and widening all those damn roads. In addition to the LVPC and Lehigh Valley Partnership, Northampton County Council in 2001 adopted a $111 bond that, in part, finances infrastructure in the county's suburbs. It has refused to rescind this financing even after a developer changed his project from industrial development to a Walmart. But County Council had no problem rescinding a $1 million grant for park preservation in Allen Township. Brilliant!
3. Support the Coalition for Alternative Transportation, an educational charity, that works to improve mobility for everyone by improving walking, bicycling and transit conditions in the Lehigh Valley. Its funding has recently been cut by our local leaders. Brilliant!
4. Promote our downtowns. Our West End Neighborhood [inactive]and Old Fairgrounds Blog [deceased] demonstrate daily that Allentown is still very much a vibrant community.
5. Consider our mass transit. Most of us turn up our noses at the thought of riding a bus. Only 1% of the Lehigh Valley's population take advantage of LANTA. But for just $2, you can ride the bus all day. And on Red Ozone days, the bus is free.
6. Consider LVBO's light rail petition. When it rejected light rail, LVPC never considered Peak Oil. Pratima Agrawal, a light rail advocate, has offered the following argument: "If planned in conjunction with other non-driving methods (company carpool, bike, walking incentives, increased bus service), local light rail connection to our three major towns would not only reduce congestion, it would help revitalize our downtowns and serve as a draw for visitors. If connected to our suburbs with park-n-rides, it would not deprive anyone of the benefits and would raise property values."
These are only a few ideas. Like I said, I'm no expert. But I've read enough to be certain of this - it's coming. And we're not ready.
Bernie
ReplyDeleteAllow me a few observations and suggestions. First and foremost we need to drill in places like ANWR, off our respective coasts and in the Gulf where we now have 37 foreign leases. We need to build nuclear plants and refineries. We need to, as reported in today's Wall Street Journal, go after the shale tars in Canada and shale oil in places like Colorado, Utah, Wyoming and North Dakota. We need to go back to old oil fields that are half full, again in the WSJ on page A19,and extract that oil. We need to look at the gasification of oil since the Air Force is now developing a fuel from coal. We have lots of it.
We also need to encourage the producers and creators who will give us the automobiles that are large, for safety reasons, efficient when it comes to gas consumption and comfortable. We do need to put into place a decent mass transit system involving rail and light rail so that we can get the monster trucks off our highways.
We need to stop turning our food into fuel particularly where we need to burn a hundred gallons of petroleum to make 90 gallons of ethanol, a fuel that reduces gas mileage by 10 percent. We need to ask why do we have 26 gas blends in this nation. If California has the strictest gas standards why are we all not operating under that and burning the same fuel. Imagine no more retooling of the refineries twice a year.
We need to debunk this new religion called Global Warming now Climate Change. This is a myth. Not only are the so called environmentalists in the process of destroying our ecomomy, taking us toward a socialist state, they are in the process of attempting to corrupt science by creating false data for their own purposes.
As to solar and wind power, these items might work in some places in the nation but I truly doubt that they will work in all. If we truly begin to educate our children and allow for the freedom needed to develop, create and produce, we can indeed become an energy independent nation and it will not cost us a fortune. But the first thing we must do is recognize that fossil fuels will play a major role in this process.
Chris,
ReplyDeleteANWAR I not an option under the current administration. I am a Democrat who would support drilling there if the environmental impact was addressed and oil companies were made to invest in safety measure (that do exist) to make drilling safe. Shale oil is not easy to mine. While it is useful for many application it will not impact the cost of gas at all.
In the valley I think regional rail is the answer. The Lehigh Valley is in denial. We have become part of the Philly/NY meggaoppolis and the person who can link the valley with NY and Philly in a practical, safe, efficient, convenient, and affordable way will be a very rich person.
Also using energy from burning coal cleanly is going to com around in PA and put that resource back on the map and put us on the cutting edge again.
Glabal warming is real. It is a matter of degree and some peole are more radical than others, but don't kid yourself my friend. Continuing to ignore the looming climate crisis will be a price your great grand children and their children will have us to thank for it.
A few points.
ReplyDelete1) We do not burn 100 gallons of petroleum to make 100 gallons of ethanol. That was once true, but is no longer so.
2) The suggestion that we need to drill in the pristine ANWAR is ridiculous. By the time we ever got anything out of there (and it's not that much), it would be too late to really make that much difference. Moreover, you're making the mistake of thinking that these supplies are infinite. They are not.
3) I think nuclear power is an option. It is safe, cheap and environmentally friendly.
4) The science is in on global warming. It's very real and I fail to understand why conservatives, of all people, would resist that. This really has nothing to do w/ ideology.
5) I agree with clean coal as an option, too, but we need to look beyond fossil fuels.
6) I like light rail right here in the LV, and that can take many forms, including better bus service. But I don't like the idea of rail into NYC or Philly. That just promotes more sprawl. I agree we are close to becoming a megopolis, but don't think we're quite there yet. Passenger rail guarantees that outcome.
Environmental concerns are real; Global Warming is questionable, but should still be taken seriously.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was interesting that you mentioned LANTA (again.) I just wanted to say that if LANTA was available to take me where I need to go, and bring me back to where I started, I would without use public transportation. But, through my experiences and the experiences of others, the service cannot be trusted and is not as accessible as it seems.
I also liked that you brought up SUVs. I keep seeing on the MSM how people are driving and purchasing SUVs less and less, and one of the major automobile companies just cut production.
The question I have is why are people still driving vehicles like Hummers? Why are they even allowed on the roads? I remember when they first started popping up; it seemed like every man had to have one because it was a powerful machine, however, I see more and more women driving them and often see them parked at various grocery stores, driven by both men and women. Additionally, in some areas where the traffic lanes are still narrow, it's impossible to share the road with the beastly Hummers.
And as for rail, I would love to see this above anything else, but it's not looking good. Trains are among my favorite forms of transportation. Perhaps this is because of my city roots but I would prefer rail over the bus and/or driving almost any day, situation permitting of course.
Bernie, rail encourages sprawl??? You said that in your last rail related piece. What do you call what we have now? Tightly packed urban centers? Hey, maybe with this coming sprawl brought about by rail, drugs will finally work their way into the Valley, also.
ReplyDeleteElectric Cars.
ReplyDelete...drugs will finally work their way into the Valley, also.
ReplyDeleteDrugs have already been brought into the Valley - where have you been?
AJ, GOP4masstran was being sarcastic. He's pointing out that we alreasy have both sprawl and drugs, so it's silly for me to oppose passenger rail for commuters. He's got a point, but I think we'll be even worse if we promote the idea of rail to the really large urban centers.
ReplyDeleteMy mistake - I woke up at that crazy hour for a free breakfast, remember, lol.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I am NOT a morning person myself.
ReplyDeletea.j.c., global warming is happening, what is questionable is the root cause.
ReplyDeleteThat's one of the more entertaining things about politicians - they can state a fact - "Global warming is real," then skip over the important issue (what's causing it), come to the conclusion they want - "it's our own fault" and propose solutions we can't afford.
I agree w/ Bernie - the influx of Philly and NY to is area has changed it enough, and in a lot of respects not for the better. Bring rail service in and we'll have to move to Williamsport to get back what we had.
If we link up NYC and Phila by rail, you can kiss the LV goodbye. That simple.
ReplyDeleteThanks for covering my back, Bernie! I think everyone is forgetting that we used to have rail service in the valley with a few different carriers. Blame 78 for sprawl, drugs supplied from NYC/Philly, congestion, the mass exodus, trucks barreling on the roads tearing up the surface, etc., etc. The sprawl is already here(and drugs).
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 9:21AM
ReplyDeleteMy understanding from a very good source is that we can drill in ANWR without a problem. The folks in Alaska, including the governor of that state wants the oil companies to come and drill One of the advantages the oil companies have today to keep down their footprint is horizontal drilling. As to Mr. O'Hare's comment on it being to late to drill there, that was Bill Clinton's remark in 1995. Had we started then we would be pumping oil out of ANWR today and the price would not be where it is at today. And I certainly realize that the supplies are not infinite.
Sorry, I do question the reality of Global Warming.For a number of reasons. First the priests of that religious movement are now calling it Climate Change. Next the science is not in on it in that 31,000 scinetists many with PhD's and Masters Degrees have noted that it is not real and may be the biggest hoax ever pulled on the public. Next, the high priest, Al Gore, he who does not have a science degree, has built a hedge fund, remember they are vehicles that allow you to make money, on green things. The Founder of the Weather Channel has called it a hoax. The info on the UN group calls attention to how the IP report was rigged.
Take a look at our own weather this year. We have had the 7th coolest May on record. We have been above precitptation for the year. We know that as of January this year the the sun has gone quiet, sun spot activity is not that great. We know that the guys with their computer models who are making these dramatic predictions missed out on the predictions of last year but we are suppose to trust them on their perdictions going out 50-100 years. We have seen the dire predictions for terrible hurricans since Katrina, actually go down and they are only calling for 8 this year with 4 being bad. We will see. And the dead give away that this is all a hoax is the fact that Congress wants to tax it and it will be the greatest re-distribution of wealth since the imposition of the income tax.
Chris,
ReplyDeleteYou apparently resist the overwhelming scientific evidence because of your animosity towards Al Gore.
The overwhelming scientific consensus is that, not only are we experiencing global warming, but we are the chief culprits. That's the opinion of 2,500 scientists at The The United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. International science academies, The American Meteorological Society, The American Association for the Advancement of Science and American Geophysical Union all express similar sentiments.
Call me crazy, but I'll believe them befgore i believe Rush Limbaugh or the president of the Weather Channel. Unfortunately, you needlessly politicize a question of scientific fact having nothing to do with liberal or conservative ideologies.
Most of the "scientific" evidence disputing the reality of global warming is funded by biased sources like the oil industry, which does not want us to stop drilling until we've drained every drop. The media picks up on and plays this, which really does us all a disservice.
"Call me crazy, but I'll believe them befgore i believe Rush Limbaugh ..."
ReplyDeleteI assumed Chris's 'very good source' is John Brinson, no?
"One of the advantages the oil companies have today to keep down their footprint is horizontal drilling."
ReplyDelete... is this akin to shoving it up our asses sideways?
NeoCons. Jesus. Are we in the proud and patriotic Liberal Democrat Majority gonna miss this mutant species come January '09 or what ...
ReplyDeleteBill Villa, I'd argue that the vast majority of Americans are fiscal conservatives (by that I mean spend $$ wisely, not wastefully) and human rights liberals, and thus don't truly fall into either party. That's thy the far left and the far right both are so offensive to most people - each offends at least 1/2 of what the average person believes in.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at the growth in voters that have registered Independent over the past 10 years, this thought is borne out. The Wall St. Journal did an article on this a month or so ago, but I can't find it / link to it.
Great discussion and well led with balance IMO.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe we will ever conserve our way out of dependence on fossil fuels. I do believe we're pathetically uninformed about nuclear energy and should pursue it as US-based companies have done for western Europe for 30 years. We should also pursue viable alternative sources that do not require conversion of food stocks on a planet where souls are starving. We shouldn't rely on oil companies to steer us away from that which returns so much on their investments (it's why I've always owned oil stocks!). I'm bothered by those who reject off shore drilling, while the Cubans and Venezuelans and Mexicans are doing it just beyond our water borders - while we send kids to fight for uninterrupted flow from the dangerous Middle East.
"NeoCons. Jesus. Are we in the proud and patriotic Liberal Democrat Majority gonna miss this mutant species come January '09 or what ..."
ReplyDeletePerhaps. But several will sit on SCOTUS for most of the rest of our lives. They're not going anywhere.
Bill Villa and Bernie
ReplyDeleteMy source is a gentleman with a Masters Degree in science. He is a heck of a lot smarter then the lot of us on this matter then all of us combined.
As to the UNIPCC, that has been proven to be pretty much of a farce. I will supply you with sources. Also, it was not the President of the weather channel, it was the Founder of the channel, a man who happens to hold a PhD in meterology. You might want to check with the folks at Accuweather and see what they have to say. I would venture that before this year is over we will be discussing global cooling something far more dangerous then Global Warming. As to man contributing to Global Warming, I would like you to explain the Jurassic period to me and the fact that the warmest year on record happens to be 1938. Then ponder what do we do with man since he is a major producer of CO2? I say plant more trees before the so called environmentalists starting diggin our burial pits.
"You apparently resist the overwhelming scientific evidence because of your animosity towards Al Gore."
ReplyDeleteOn the first Earth Day, I and my classmates from St. Joseph's Catholic School cleaned St. Joseph's Cemetery on Easton's South Side. We learned about recycling and different things we could do to prevent the Ice Age they expected to happen in the next ten to twenty years.
The same folks who believe the science is settled on this are the same ones who told me to stockpile sweaters in 1971. I'm not buying.
And I felt this way before Al Gore invented the Internet and started urging his useful idiots to read under dim light bulbs while he zips around in private jets as his house burns more fuel than Northampton County.
The difference between Al Gore and me is that I admit I haven't the answers. Al, however, is never in doubt, and has plenty of financial incentive to not keep an open mind about any of it.
There is nothing 'conservative' about NeoCons. You people are reckless. Thank God for Liberals. We're the new conservatives. And the voice of sanity. Barry Goldwater would be proud of us. And deeply ashamed of you and your ilk. Get ready for 24 years of Liberal Democrats in the White House. Praise the Lord.
ReplyDeleteWell Bill Villa, I won't descend to your level, it's a shame you can't have a civil discussion.
ReplyDeleteBut I will say this - if you read my post you'd see that I never said anything specifically about the Neocons. In fact, I'd put the Neocons on the far right, where people are just as much a problem as those on the far left.
The majority of Americans are in the middle Bill - and please don't get so angry when someone disagrees with you, any effectiveness you might have had goes right out the window.
"Several will sit on SCOTUS for most of the rest of our lives. They're not going anywhere."
ReplyDeleteSCOTUS? I'd be more concerned about your scrotum. President Obama will appoint at least 2, maybe 3 new Supreme Court Justices of the United States and that court's gonna make a louie so hard and fast Scalia's robe will be tangled up around his head.
"Well Bill Villa, I won't descend to your level, it's a shame you can't have a civil discussion."
ReplyDeleteYou're out-gunned and I won't apologize for that. We're taking the country back, and not to worry, we'll take good care of it ...
Outgunned? Hardly. I choose to not engage in mud-slinging, that accomplishes nothing except making the slinger look like an idiot.
ReplyDeleteAnytime you're capable of a discussion instead of name-calling and attacks, let me know.
Chris and others,
ReplyDeleteNo doubt you will come across a stray Ph.D. with unusual views from time to time. I also remember the concerns about the next ice age.
But this view about global warming is reality. It has nothing to do with ideology. According to a lengthy summary in Wikipedia, it's pretty clear this is a consensus view. Now this does not mean the consensus is right, but that is the view of our leading scientific thinkers.
"The majority of climate scientists agree that global warming is primarily caused by human activities such as fossil fuel burning and deforestation. The conclusion that global warming is mainly caused by human activity and will continue if greenhouse gas emissions are not reduced has been endorsed by at least 30 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized countries. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the Joint Science Academies of the major industrialized and developing nations explicitly use the word 'consensus' when referring to this conclusion.br/>
I don't believe we help anything by attacking each other, whether it's calling people like Gore "high priests" or calling others neocons who just want to rape our natural resources. We need to listen to each other.
1) Electric cars.
2) Clean coal.
3) Drilling (but not ANWAR).
4) Nuclear.
5) Solar and wind.
6) ethanol.
There is no silver bullet, but we need to shed our dependence on foreign oil. We need to be pragmatic. Most of all, we need to listen to each other, left and right.
I may be completely wrong about everything else, but think I'm right about that.
"The far left and the far right both are so offensive to most people ..."
ReplyDeleteRight now, after 8 years of George W. Bush, America needs a strong left to pull the lunatic fringe right to the center. As soon as these nuts are 'centralized,' we'll gladly join you in the middle.
Electric cars.
"I choose to not engage in mud-slinging, that accomplishes nothing except making the slinger look like an idiot."
ReplyDeleteI agree. For example, mudslinging that "Al Gore invented the internet" is a surefire way to come off looking like an idiot.
"The difference between Al Gore and me is that I admit I haven't the answers."
ReplyDeleteThree other slight differences between Al and you would be that you don't have a Nobel Prize or an Academy Award and you didn't get more votes than George Bush in 2000.
We don't need the lunatic right (or the lunatic left) to move into the middle - the middle is plenty big enough, let the nutjobs stay where they are.
ReplyDeleteOn this topic, that's why I like McCain - anyone that pisses off the far right and the far left is ok by me.
Al Gore didn't invent the internet???
"1) Electric cars."
ReplyDeleteYep.
Bill, you're so worked up you're missing jokes now. Of course Al Gore didn't invent the internet - his direct quote was "I took the initiative in creating the internet." Biggggg difference btw/ inventing and creating!
ReplyDeleteTake a deep breath and relax a bit.
"Bill, you're so worked up you're missing jokes now."
ReplyDelete... worked up? You obviously don't know me. I'm toying with you. Oh, and "but I was only kidding" (re: Gore) is a favorite tactic of the tragically out-gunned. It's also embarrassingly transparent ...
Read the whole post again Bill! I think Al Gore believes he actually did invent the internet!
ReplyDelete"I like McCain"
ReplyDeleteAs President Dick Cheney would say, "so?"
I gotta go now (and read the Communist Manifesto), no seriously, my son has a school festival. It's been fun (and trading political barbs should be fun) ...
ReplyDeleteBernie
ReplyDeleteYou would be better off refering to at as Gore and the others are doing, Climate Change. As to drilling in ANWR why not? We can go there and have an absolutely mimimal impact as far as a footprint is concerned. I take it you do favor drilling in the lower 48 and also off the coast. When you speak of electric cars keep in mind that the battery models have lead in them and the plug in's require fossil fuels to produce the electricity to charge the car.
You are correct on nuclear and the need to look at alternatives. But alternatives are not there yet and burning our food for fuel is almost as clever as using oil to make plastic and polyester along with a ton of other items.
All I am telling you Bernie is to get all the facts. Keep in mind that a lot of the folks supporting this were supporting the coming ice age a few years ago. Keep in mind that this has become not only a political issue it is emotional and emotions rule today. And keep in mind that if you think about it, is it good to have a so called consensus on the science of the matter. That's like my students who enjoyed telling me that history was all that old stuff and it never changes then all of a sudden an archaelogist unearth's one or we find a pile of bones somewhere and they aren't supposed to be there or a diary that tosses a whole story out the window. Don't go jumping on to this band wagon. It's another farce preached by the gloom and doom crowd. Your to smart for that.
Bill Villa
ReplyDeleteYou are not a liberal any more in case you haven't heard you are a Progressive just as neo-conservatives are not really conservatives in the way that Buckley, Reagan, and Goldwater would define them.
If truth be known, those of us who consider ourselves conservative are really classical liberals as were the Founding Fathers who believed that men had rights given to them by God and by reason, as John Locke concluded in his Second Treatise. As such man is the only one who can create and dissolve governments. They also believe in small governments.
Progressives on the other hand believe in Big Government and high taxes. They claim to stand for our individual rights while gradually intruding into our lives and taking them away. They are interested in growing the power of the national government for their own gain of power and prestige. They are second raters and looters. They are, I am afraid, winning the battle given that we have two who will be running for president.
I think Al Gore believes he actually did invent the internet!
ReplyDeleteJust so we're all clear her, Al Gore never made this claim. According to Snopes, Gore never claimed he invented the Internet, nor did he say anything that could be reasonable interpreted that way. During a '99 interview with Wolf Blitzer, he did claim that as a member of Congress, he "took the initiative in creating the internet." And it's true as a member of Congress, he did approve the spending plans that eventually resulted in the Internet.
Just as Eisenhower was responsible for the legislation that resulted in our interstate highways, Gore enabled the Internet.
As to drilling in ANWR why not? We can go there and have an absolutely mimimal impact as far as a footprint is concerned. I take it you do favor drilling in the lower 48 and also off the coast.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe we can drill there without upsetting a delicate ecobalance. If I felt as you do, I'd agree about drilling.
When you speak of electric cars keep in mind that the battery models have lead in them and the plug in's require fossil fuels to produce the electricity to charge the car.
Not necessarily. Electric cars can be fueled by fossil fuels or other sources of electricity.
It should be Bill, enjoyed it as well - enjoy the festival!
ReplyDelete"SCOTUS? I'd be more concerned about your scrotum."
ReplyDeleteUsed to have respect for this guy. Didn't have him figured for a mouth-breather. Another one bites the civility dust.
Wikipedia? C'mon. Cut it out.
ReplyDeleteI doubt bill could assimilate the communist manifesto. Wait until the crayon version with lots of pictures, bill.
ReplyDeleteWikipedia? C'mon. Cut it out.
ReplyDeleteWikipedia is a verty useful source, especially when it contains links to its claims. I've found it to be pretty reliable.
Mars and Venus are warming and there's not a whiff of bill villa's hot air within millions of miles.
ReplyDeleteThe sky is falling! Wipe with one square!
Anybody want to buy my Ice Age sweaters?
"Progressives on the other hand believe in Big Government ..."
ReplyDeleteYa know, I hadn't thought of George W. Bush as a 'progressive' but I guess you're right, Chris, since our government has ballooned to an unprecedented BIGness on W's watch. He did cut taxes though, and during a war, and that was unprecedented too.
I'm a Liberal and in the same ballpark as our President-to-be, Barack Obama.
"Progressives ... claim to stand for our individual rights while gradually intruding into our lives and taking them away."
ReplyDeleteYou mean like the Patriot Act (I think I'm getting this) ...
"Progressives ... are interested in growing the power of the national government for their own gain of power and prestige. They are second raters and looters."
ReplyDeleteSo Cheney and Halliburton are 'Progressives' too, wow, it all makes sense now ...
" ... those of us who consider ourselves conservative are really classical liberals as were the Founding Fathers who believed that men had rights given to them by God ..."
ReplyDeleteOkay cool, so we're both Liberals. Don't forget though, unlike our Founding Fathers who believed that white men had rights given to them by God, the Liberals I'm with believe that all men (and women) have rights given to them by God.
You still a Liberal, Chris?
Bill brings up a good point - the conservative position has been clouded by the atrocious job done by the Bush administration. Bush makes Bill Clinton look like a fiscal conservative.
ReplyDeleteI hope that John McCain (the next president) holds to his pledge to veto any budget or bill with pork products attached. I've been very unhappy w/ Bush's lack of a spine in that regard.
"Don't forget though, unlike our Founding Fathers who believed that white men had rights given to them by God, the Liberals I'm with believe that all men (and women) have rights given to them by God."
ReplyDeleteIf your a self described Barack Obama Liberal then your God scares the sweet living honey out of my hive.
Further, your comment tarnishing all the Founding Fathers as racists is inane. Rent the video of the wonderful musical 1776 and you will learn otherwise. Best of all you will learn otherwise as the result of gloriously melodic and cleverly written songs.
Hey, if Bernie can quote Wikipedia as a definitive source I can quote a musical!
Love you Bernie and I love the discussion that you and Bill are inspiring. This is one of the most interesting posts you have done.
It is a good discussion when people can state completely different views without too many personal attacks. I really enjoy it when people like Chris and other big conservatives come on and let us have it. I don't think they're completely wrong or that we Communists are completely right. I like when we listen to each other and try to take good ideas fdrom each side. I read something about this in Wikipedia.
ReplyDelete"your God scares the sweet living honey out of my hive."
ReplyDelete(I could be wrong but) I believe we all share the same God.
" ... your comment tarnishing all the Founding Fathers as racists is inane."
ReplyDeleteWhat's inane is blindly seeing America as being faultless. From 1776 to 1965, we weren't exactly getting that "all men are created equal" part quite right. Seeing (and correcting) America's faults and loving America can be done simultaneously. How else can one explain African-Americans being able to love their country.
Halliburton was Bill Clinton's go-to company for no bid contracts long before Clinton left the White House with a fist full of Marc Rich and Puerto Rican terrorist pardons - and his socks filled with White House candlesticks and silverware (and "W" keys).
ReplyDeleteIf it came from Wikipedia, it must be somewhat "truthy."
ReplyDeleteBill Villa
ReplyDeleteI am still a Classical Liberal not a liberal in your sense of the word.
If you take a look at histroy you will see that the Progressives, initially represented by Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson were great believers in what has become the nationalization of the government. At the end of Wilson's presidency the names changed because the term Progressive was leaving a bad taste in peoples' mouths due to Wilson's actions resolving World War I. The Progressives became the liberals of the 20th century. Their opposition, primarly Republicans, became conservatives.
With the Hillary, Obama, Edwards campaigns, the name once again changed in that the liberal Democrats began to call themselves Progressives. The term, however, is applicable to those who look to create a centralize government and expand its size and yes you can be either a Democrat or Republican. George W. Bush gave us the warning in his campaign when he created that "compassionate conservatism" that just has the smell of "the government will take care of you" all over it. He then proceded to put a massive drug program into place. He used "war", a tactic that gets us to unite around the government as well as the word "crisis" like the seatbelt crisis or the obesity crisis that allows the government to be the champion of good causes. The government then begins to intrude into our lives by telling us or finin us for our bad behavior, smoking, eating, buying assualt veicles like SUVs or Hummers. If you believe it this stuff you are a Progressive. If you do not you are closer to a conservative or a Classical Liberal.
As to leaving out a segment of our society, why would I do that? Gandhi gave a speech to his followers wherein he explained to them that if they continued to exclude the untouchables from independence they,the non-untouchables, did not deserve their freedom and that disaster would befall the nation of India.
Every nation has a history some of it good, some of it bad. Our Founding Fathers had to make choices if they were going to move forward. I would ask you to recall the "In order to from a more perferct union" phrase that tells me that they were not all that happy with some of those choices. I like to believe that I would stand up for an individuals rights no matter their sex, race, or nationality. The only exception that I would have in today's current climate is the illegal immigrant. Go home,do it right, and come back and prosper here for you and your family.You come here because you realize that America is the best place to fulfill your dreams and prosper but your first act should not be an illegal one.
As to Classical Liberals, keep in mind that in 1776 the conservatives were those supporting England and the Crown. Those who wanted change were the classical liberals, men who had come to the conclusion that man received his unalienable rights from God and thus he was the only one who could create or dissolve governments. Locke went to far, probably playing to the agnostic wing of the conservatives of the time, to say that man could make a case for his rights through just reason.
Bernie
ReplyDeleteExplain and describe the delicate ecobalance in ANWR. I have heard this from many but just do not see it in this frozen tundra? Does it have to do with the cute little polar bears whose numbers are increasing because the hunters in Alaska managed to get limits set to save that savage beast? Other then a phhot op, why would we miss them if they went belly up?
You might want to check the NY Times article by John Tierny from the January 1, 2008 paper.
Chris, you obviously know your American political science/history and I respect you for that. Certainly, there are up- and down-sides to all political persuasions, be they Liberal (Classical or otherwise), Conservative, NeoCon, Progressive, etc.
ReplyDeleteI hope we can agree that the America we both love is longing for positive change ... and that we're all expecting our new President to deliver it.
Bill, I couldn't agree w/ you more. I voted for Bush and I am so disappointed in his presidency I can't stand it.
ReplyDeleteI hope we all keep in mind though that Congress has just as big a hand in the crap we're in.
Vote consciences people, not labels!
I'm with ya, anon 11:39am ... let's get back to being the UNITED States of America ...
ReplyDeleteExplain and describe the delicate ecobalance in ANWR.
ReplyDeleteI'll write about it in the next few days and you can show me the error of my ways.
If it came from Wikipedia, it must be somewhat "truthy."
ReplyDeleteI confess I like it. But then I read blogs, too.
Bill Villa
ReplyDeleteThank you for the compliment I appreciate it and work hard to keep up on my stuff.
The error you and many make, including myself, is putting our faith in the President and other government officials who tell us they wake every morning thinking of what they can do for us and really end up doing it to us. We need to be on top of all of our officials and not view them as some one who is going to pull our behinds out of the fire. I beleive we get there with term limits of every office in this nation. These elected officials are beating the crap out of us and we sit there like a bunchh of whipped dogs asking for more.
"The error you and many make, including myself, is putting our faith in the President and other government officials ..."
ReplyDeleteHaving faith in someone shouldn't be an error. It should be a joy. There have been numerous great American Presidents who were worthy of the faith we put in them. We need one of this calibre to report for work in January '09 ... as the Oval Office door swings and hits the guy exiting in the rear-end real hard on his way out ...
"These elected officials are beating the crap out of us and we sit there like a bunchh of whipped dogs asking for more."
ReplyDeleteYou're of course referring to Lehigh County District Attorney Jim Martin and I couldn't agree with you more. This bum's gotta go ASAP.
"We need one of this calibre to report for work in January '09"
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more, but given the poor choices that have emerged, it'll be at least January of '13.
Obama was selected, not elected.
ReplyDelete"We need to be on top of all of our officials and not view them as some one who is going to pull our behinds out of the fire."
ReplyDeleteChris, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is code for "hey, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, that's what I would do (had I not inherited the family business.")
That is, things like welfare (and other compassionate government programs) are bad ... and an example of the kind of big protectionist government that 'Progressives' love.
But what about tax cuts for the richest Americans during a war? Isn't this brand of protectionist (and elitist) welfare worse?
The Conservative mantra of "big government is bad" is not only BS (Bush/Cheney having bloated our government into the biggest behemoth it's ever been), it ignores the fact that government is in a position to do certain things best and thus should be doing them, such as ... National Defense, Social Security, Regulating Unfair Trade Practices and Unsafe Working Conditions, Protecting Consumers against Fraud and Predatory Lending Practices, etc., etc.
I believe the thinking behind the Conservative position that "big gov't = bad" is really all about this:
If we spend less gov't money protecting people who can't afford to protect themselves (like we rich can),
that money can then be used to further line our already well-lined pockets-- a.k.a. the rich get richer, which is what the rich and powerful and over-privileged tend to be all about ... "compassionate conservatism" notwithstanding.
Bill Villa 7:36 AM
ReplyDeleteWant you to know that I did not inherit the family business though I had a grandfather with a sixth grade education who ran a rural general store in Bushkill Township and a Farm equipment business for 59 years. He was a major success literally starting out with nothing and doing quite well for himself. He sat on the bank board, restored the old cemetary at Plainfield Church, the one he attended, employed famliy members in his business, took in a boy who grew into a man who went to work for him. He gave time and talent to his community. My mom and dad, after my grandfather went out of business built, owned and operated the Melody Motel, now the Travel Inn. We ran it as a family. My father, like his father gave time and talent to his community. He managed to send to sons to Moravian College. Both of us ended up as teachers in the Bethlehen School District. I worked summer jobs and while retired from teaching, I sell real estate for Coldwell Banker. My brother and I still give time and talent to our respective communities. We both are products of a generation that believed in pulling yourself up by your bootstraps because you cannot count on the government i.e. the folks in New Orleans who waited for the governnment to come save them.
As to all those marvelous programs that you mentioned. Every single solitary one of them with the exception of National Defense, can be eliminated tomorrow with a stroke of a pen. You explain to me how a national government can make a policy for 300 million people who live in 50 different states that have their own policies. You can't do that. You and I both know that Social Security and Medicare that make up 40% of the federal budget are two disasters. You and I both know that if we had to live on social security we could not do that. And talk about unfair, why, if I die before my wife who worked for close to 30 years and paid into SS, loses her social security payment in exchange for mine. Why doesn't she get both? If it were the other way, why wouldn't I get both? The reason is that the government considers that money to be their money. It's not. It's my money and your money. As to medicare, you are looking at another and possibly greater disaster. Why shouldn't you and I be able to select and make our own insurance plan from any state in the nation? And keep in mind that both of these items are fixed with Social Security promised debt actually off the books. It is a Ponzi scheme and I can guarantee you that were it to appear today as a bill it would not pass.
Because our money is taken from us I would tell you that many cannot be as charitable as they would like to be. We are, despite the taxes we pay both known and real, the most generous people on earth. I know that the moral lessons I learned from my mom and dad hhave been instilled in many people across this land.
Big government is bad. Our politicians of both parties are more concerned about their own power then us. Watch this election. I will predict that Obama will win. The Hillary votes will go to him. McCain will not win. The Republicans are going to take a beating and lose a lot of seats in Congress because the base is thorougly perturbed by their spending and the creation of the Republican New Deal. We have spanked them in the past and they are going to get it again.
If you pay close attention to what is going on right now you will see a lot of indivuduals in the media, in the conservative wing, in the book stores talking about where are the producers. I am hoping that this means that some real, not contrived change is on the horizon. People who produce will need people to work for them. Maybe we will see the emergence of a work ethic again and we won't need illegal immigrants.
"Want you to know that I did not inherit the family business ..."
ReplyDelete... didn't mean to imply you personally, Chris. I was satirizing in a general way, that is, how many of the "haves" (who have had it easy for generations) can be quick to criticize the have-nots for not "making it" like they did.
I'll agree that big, pork- and cronyism-stuffed government is bad. Like what we have now.
But I believe the big hearted American people are mostly in favor of New Deal (FDR) and Great Society (LBJ) type social programs that are designed to help those who don't have bootstraps. Like the survivors of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. There's no excuse for the government's poor performance regarding this disaster and it's cruel to suggest that those people should have been prepared to help themselves ...
-BO says..."2) The suggestion that we need to drill in the pristine ANWAR is ridiculous. By the time we ever got anything out of there (and it's not that much), it would be too late to really make that much difference. Moreover, you're making the mistake of thinking that these supplies are infinite. They are not. " It is thinking like this that has us at the mercy of OPEC, we have $4 a gallon for gas now. Diesel fuel is $5 a gallon...thats the same fuel we use to heat our homes except for the penndot tax. This winter people will be freezing to death or having frozen pipes when they try to survive.
ReplyDeleteBO said.."4) The science is in on global warming. It's very real and I fail to understand why conservatives, of all people, would resist that. This really has nothing to do w/ ideology" Thats fine, but what about China , India, South America, Africa, Russia, etc who do nor care less about the environment and are the biggest polluters EVER, and yet they do nothing. The USA has cleaned up its act, start talking about China S America Mexico...
ReplyDeleteBill Villa said...
ReplyDelete"I choose to not engage in mud-slinging, that accomplishes nothing except making the slinger look like an idiot."
I agree. For example, mudslinging that "Al Gore invented the internet" is a surefire way to come off looking like an idiot.""""
5:40 PM"" Gore DID Say it! It was played on TV many times, just like Obama and his 57 states.
The last three anonymous comments posted by Henry Schaadt, aka River, are completely full of misinformation.
ReplyDeleteBernie you have an opinion and I do too, that does not prove your points nor does it make you or I an angel...but I feel you seem to think of yourself as one. Thanks Henry
ReplyDeleteBO if you feel it is misinformation, name examples of whay you imply. henry
ReplyDeleteHenry, if you would just go so far as to read some of the links and comments in this blog, you'd see how misinformed you are. i'm sorry, but I won't waste any time trying to interact with you. I've wasted enough time before. You need to go to high school or something. I can't help you.
ReplyDeleteBill Villa
ReplyDeleteI am afraid I would have to disagree with you on Americans wanting the New Deal and LBJ's war on poverty. We spent billions of dollars maybe trillions on poverty and honestly where did that get us and let me tell you that as a young Democrat at that time in 1964I fell for Johnson's War. By 1968, I realized I had been had and cast my first predidential vote for Nixon. We were truly headed in the wrong direction.
Ask yourself, what big program has the government run successfully. The trains? Social Security? Civil Rights? Education? Health Care. On and on it goes. I am a great believer in helping my fellow man when he is in trouble. But when he comes for a hand out and expects us to give it to him on a monthly basis for the rest of his life and he is an able bodied man, no, I will not do that. I will help him get a job. I will get him help for any addictions. But if he can help himself, he needs to do that otherwise he will never have selfworth. What that will do is free up the money for those who really need it and it will allow more people to give of their talents to those in their community. Bill Clinton finally agreed to sign a bill designed to get people away from that insidious life. Unfortunately, I recently read an article that stated welfare was on the rise again. We cannot continue to rape the treasury and give ourselve a largesse from the funds. If you rob Peter to pay Paul you can always count on Paul for support but what happens when we all become Pauls, the goal of the altruists. On top of that, the welfare programs create people who are not grateful to those of us giving the money through the government pipe line. If this were indeed something to be proud of why do schools give all the kids little plastic cards for lunch. It's to hide those who get a free lunch.
As to Katrina victims a couple of questions. Do your have an emergancy plan? Do you have food stored away for a rainy day? Do you have a battery powered radio so you can get the news? How did the folks in Mississippi and Alabama make it without the help of the Feds? You and I know that DC is a behemoth that takes forever to get moving why would you wait on it. I sat agasp at those folks in New Orleans. It told me a lot when they re-elected that uncaring mayor.
As for the fat cats, well I must agree particulary when it is a guy like Teddy Kennedy who has never been a producer and likes to help people with our money. Has anyone anywhere ever refered to the giving this man has done? I can't recall. I am sure they have Foundations but I have always seen that as a bit impersonal.
I've enjoyed our back & forth, Chris. Obviously, we won't be convincing each other on much and that's okay; it's a two-party system. Hopefully, both parties will reach across the aisle starting in January '09, find the common ground, and get some good things done. As I'm sure you know, being as knowledgeable as you are about American politics, few politicians in American history have been as successful at brokering bipartisan programs as has Senator Ted Kennedy. He has been an inspiration to generations of Democrats and Republicans.
ReplyDeleteBill Villa
ReplyDeleteBy brokering programs are you referring to what was the Bush-Kennedy No Child Left Behind that is now the Bush No Child Left Behind program. Teddy got out of the kitchen real fast on that one. Maybe you meant his amnesty for illegal immigrants with his buddy John McCain who now claims he gets it and will ultimately get it in November. I know also that when it comes to Teddy Kennedy, Mary Jo got it in a way she was never expecting. Sorry but I still hold that against the man and will until he or I leave the good earth. Maybe even after that.
The fact that you and I disagree is really a good thing. I do not believe we really want this Can't We All Get Along in Congress because you are risking the elimination of thought and differing opinions. I believe we need to learn how to listen to one another. I think we need to remember that we use to pride ourselves on the abiltity to discuss and compromise as the guys in Philadelphia did lo those many years ago. That was one of my major reasons for voting for Bob Dole. Instead we contiune to play the gotcha game that results in identity politics. This in turn gives us political correctness to the point that we now go to blogs to discuss the fiery issues of the day. I may disagree with some or all of what you say and you the same with me but we can get our thougts and ideas out there and learn from one another. I think the biggest thing that irritates me about our elected officials is that they think we are stupid. Why aren't we happy with that multi gazillion dollar health care package they just gave us. It's the spending stupid should be the sign of the election.
Bernie, the price of a barrel of oil,(they use a figure of about 42 gallons), just went up $11 in one afternoon. Do you still honestly think we should not start drilling in Anwar and off the coast to get our own oil to help? China is drilling of the coast of Florida,why can't the United States of America do the same? Henry
ReplyDeleteI oppose offsore drilling in alaska for reasons I will explain next week in a detailed post.
ReplyDelete"Teddy"
ReplyDeleteI'm an admirer of Senator Kennedy's positions and voting records on the war in Iraq, gun control, student financial aid, the minimum wage, energy policies, and the environment, among others.
I am deleting an OT rant about gun control posted by Henry Schaadt, aka River. This post has nothing to do w/ guns.
ReplyDeleteGasoline will be $4.159 in the next few weeks, not to mention what heating oil and natural gas will be this winter. We are no longer talking about just the environment. We are now talking about our own quality of life. I say drill. Thanks Henry Schaadt
ReplyDelete