tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post1518485351902130078..comments2024-03-28T07:47:07.376-04:00Comments on Lehigh Valley Ramblings: Allentown City Council Muzzles Citizen ParticipationBernie O'Harehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13756311150988957401noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-84734380984803701682009-03-24T13:10:00.000-04:002009-03-24T13:10:00.000-04:00It has been my experience that if a candidate has ...It has been my experience that if a candidate has the willingness to appear before a group of elected officials and express his or her opinion, it shows that they have an interest in the the office they seek. It is, after all, a public meeting. As a candidate, I was given the courtesy to speak before the Lehigh County Board of Commissioners. I also spoke before several local municipal bodies while a candidate, if only to introduce myself. While a member of the Board of Commissioners , candidates came before us and they were given the courtesy of the floor just the same as any other citizen. It shows interest in the office. And it shows interest in the people who come before the Board. Elected officials are public servants. Part of public service is listening to the views of your constituents, whether or not you agree with them. Excluding individuals from participation in their government weakens the democratic process.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-70094986133652199422009-03-24T12:03:00.000-04:002009-03-24T12:03:00.000-04:00Anon 12:27,I spoke w/ Lou Hershman. He was present...Anon 12:27,<BR/><BR/>I spoke w/ Lou Hershman. He was present when the gag rule was invoked against MM. He is opposed to the gag rule and would have allowed MM to speak if it were up to him. But as he explained, those decisions are made by the chair. <BR/><BR/>In Donovan's case, he has publicly supported this gag rule, and continues to bray away this morning. This is in addition to his support of secret meetings by some group of uneelected campaign contributors who will possibly recommend city worker layoffs. <BR/><BR/>Donovan has lost my support. Instead of standing for inclusion, he stands for exclusion. He is willing to trust the fate of blue collar city workers to some cabal of unelected campaign contribiutors. He is willing to cut off public debate from people who are interested in city issues. He no longer stands for open and accountable government. He stands for the status quo. I'm deeply disappointed.Bernie O'Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756311150988957401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-61791544899754780452009-03-24T06:17:00.000-04:002009-03-24T06:17:00.000-04:00Chris Telgen In this country it is the right of e...Chris Telgen<BR/><BR/> In this country it is the right of every citizen to speak out. Good government springs from a civil discourse of events and ideas. <BR/> I have done far more than my share for the city. Allentown,c'est fini.<BR/><BR/> Scott ArmstrongAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-26173558130085174402009-03-24T00:42:00.000-04:002009-03-24T00:42:00.000-04:00No I use profanity to make points. My point is tha...No I use profanity to make points. My point is that your argument is bullshit because it does not matter whether Lou did or did not advocate muzzles when he was on council. <BR/><BR/>Your suggestion that you will ask the clerk to pull the records is a good one. Tomorrow, I will call Lou and find out whether he objected and what is general feeling was at the time that MM was muzzled. You can report here and so will I. <BR/><BR/>Tony P, I know for a fact, was upset at what had happened and has said so. He has not tried to defend the action. <BR/><BR/>Here's my point. Donovan has opened himself up to criticism because he has publicly defended the muzzle. He may not like it being called a muzzle, but that's exactly what it was. Moreover, it is an illegal muzzle. <BR/><BR/>Hershman, to my knowledge, has never advocated that muzzle. If he has, then he can be criticized for that just like Donovan is getting nailed for defending an illegal action. <BR/><BR/>But regardless of what Lou may or may not have advocated, he is still entitled to speak. That's my point. Even if he actively sought to muzzle others, that is no justification for muzzling him now. That's why I say your argument is bullshit. <BR/><BR/>My argument, incidentally, applies to EVERY candidate, not just Lou. It is my position that the Sunshine Act and HRC would require council to listen even if the mayor himself wanted to address them during courtesy of the floor.Bernie O'Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756311150988957401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-5051396236910577522009-03-24T00:36:00.000-04:002009-03-24T00:36:00.000-04:00Again all Scott Armstrong can do is take another c...Again all Scott Armstrong can do is take another cheap shot at Democrats. Why not run Scott. You blame the voters and the residents for the terrible office holders, yet what has the Republican Party fielded.<BR/><BR/>So run Scott, when people see and hear your eloquence you will win by over 80%, or not.<BR/><BR/>Maybe people will just see a whinning, moaning idealogue who enjoys being a self-styled victim.<BR/><BR/>Chris TelgenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-83046566203677582242009-03-24T00:27:00.000-04:002009-03-24T00:27:00.000-04:00You only use the profanity when you are really bac...You only use the profanity when you are really backed into a corner. I also note how you keep ignoring the point that Lou ignored this travesty of free speach while on council for at least two years if not longer. You prove my point for me my friend. You accuse Mike Donovon of not being consistent, yet you are not consistent. By your logic everyone on council who supports this (and by not voicing opisition the members of council including Tony Phillips, and LOU HERSHMEN when he was a member give and gave their support to this rule)should be guilty of a violation. How many people in history have been convicted of complicity by not trying to stop a crime. My point is you are not being consistent. My two questions for you are thus. <BR/><BR/>1. Please find out why if Lou is so upset by this rule (and lets remove the legality and just talk about the fairness of it) why did he not stand up for MM in 2005 and why did he not push to change it in 2005,2006, and 2007?<BR/><BR/>2. Why is it ok for Lou to not stand up to this rule until now? I would have more respect for the man if he would have stood up to this when he had nothing to gain but more discourse with concerned citizen when he was on council.<BR/><BR/>I am asking to logical and fair questions here. I ask that you respond in kind and actually participate in the debate style you are fighting for instead of descending into profanity. I will even make you a deal. I will ask the city clerk to pull the minutes from MM's 2005 meeting to see how Lou reacted. I can only assume that MM with a good a memory as he has would have told us if Lou stood up to the rule. If Lou did then he is consistent (to a degree) and I am wrong. If he did not, than can we at least agree that no matter what we think of the rule Lou's new found disgust and surprise is nothing more than politics as usual grandstanding? I like Lou a lot but like all politicians of either party he grandstands.<BR/><BR/>Bernie, you are seeking consistancy out of Mike Donovon, that is all I am seeking from you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-10972945725297797102009-03-23T23:28:00.000-04:002009-03-23T23:28:00.000-04:00Like I said, this has nothing to do with Lou Hersh...Like I said, this has nothing to do with Lou Hershman. He is only one of 7 or 8 candidates in this race. My argument applies to all of them. It has nothing to do weith the personlaities and everything to do w/ the basic right to speak. Your argument is bullshit.Bernie O'Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756311150988957401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-80708865164777507592009-03-23T23:10:00.000-04:002009-03-23T23:10:00.000-04:00It is good to see Lou Hershman will have an apolog...It is good to see Lou Hershman will have an apologist blog. Just like you blast the Mayor for. I find it more disturbing that you are ok with a 30+ year incumbent who does not know a rule voilates the HRC or the Sunshine Law (your opinion). What the hell was he doing for all those years? This comes down to the fact that you like Lou, so he gets a pass and the others who are just asking that he follow the same rule everyone else has get bashed. Again, Lou saw no problem with this rule when he was on the dias, only when he has to abide by it does he see a problem. I hope he challanges it, but in the meantime I want the rules (which by the way as a member of council he would have to have voted on from time to time, curious how he voted) to be universally enforced until such time as a court of law not public opinion deams them wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-84195185275348290722009-03-23T22:09:00.000-04:002009-03-23T22:09:00.000-04:00Lou Hershman was a council member when the rule wa...Lou Hershman was a council member when the rule was invoked against MM in '05. But he was not council Prez, the person who actually invokes the rule. Nor did he attempt to justify the rule, as Doonovan has done. And, to be honest, I doubt Lou was aware about the Sunshine Act or Home Rule Charter until I pointed it out.<BR/><BR/>But let's assume that Lou weas chomping at the bit to muzzle MM. That does not justify an illegal rule being applied to him now. You see, this has nothing to do with bashing Pawlowski and everything to do w/ the Sunshine Act and Home Rule Charter. <BR/><BR/>Yes, I like Lou and respect him. But to be honest, he and I probably disagree on very many issues. This is not about politics - this is about the public's right to speak. <BR/><BR/>Whether Lou followed the law is irrelevant to that question. You can't justify a breach of the Sunshine Act by saying that someone else, when in office, breached it as well.Bernie O'Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756311150988957401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-37305619474792016492009-03-23T21:50:00.000-04:002009-03-23T21:50:00.000-04:00"If you read MM's comment, posted above, he notes ..."If you read MM's comment, posted above, he notes the rule was uysed against him in '05. "<BR/><BR/>Lou was on council in 05. He would have been sitting there when this happened to MM, so why did he do nothing then? Bernie, I know you like Lou but if he sat there and let this happen to MM four years ago and did nothing about it, and did nothing for two more years isn't he as guilty according to your criteria as Donvon and D'Amore are? Or does Lou get special treatment because you like him and he will use he campaign to bash Mayor Pawlowski? Just curiousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-65385277419708684612009-03-23T21:28:00.000-04:002009-03-23T21:28:00.000-04:00This post brings back almost forgotten long lost m...This post brings back almost forgotten long lost memories when Kermit Delong Jr, now a Lynn Township Supervisor, proclaimed to Mr. Najarian, a sitting supervisor," Are you saying Lynn Townships dirty?. Your insulating our elected officials."<BR/><BR/>When the facts became clear, Lynn Township had their share of dirty elected officials and still due in some cases.<BR/><BR/> That's insulating the local taxpayers!!!eckville presshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00441853160464073145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-58988724080531159532009-03-23T21:06:00.000-04:002009-03-23T21:06:00.000-04:00"I guess Lou had no problem when he an incumbent w...<EM>"I guess Lou had no problem when he an incumbent with this rule."</EM> <BR/><BR/>If you read MM's comment, posted above, he notes the rule was uysed against him in '05. Prior to that, he had never seen it used. I get the impression this rule was pretty much ignored until recently so I doubt, therefore that Hershman was intimately familiar with it. <BR/><BR/>But that does not matter. If a rule is wrong, it's wrong.Bernie O'Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756311150988957401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-57141352299624270942009-03-23T20:27:00.000-04:002009-03-23T20:27:00.000-04:00In Allentown long speeches and/or presentations ha...In Allentown long speeches and/or presentations have been the weapon of choice to stifle dissent or end questioning. Case in point the now infamous Pawlowski Power Point Presentations. When I saw one during his campaign I thought he was finished as a politician, it was that bad. They still are yet too many of the city D's only care about party not substance.<BR/> Many of the city D's talk a good game but in the end they all seem to tow the line. That is not good government,it is just politics.<BR/><BR/> Scott ArmstrongAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-91443096911042772142009-03-23T19:47:00.000-04:002009-03-23T19:47:00.000-04:00"Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, ab..."Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact."<BR/><BR/>George Eliot (who didn't even know Councilor Donovan)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-21366319911380021592009-03-23T19:05:00.000-04:002009-03-23T19:05:00.000-04:00Bernie -In Allentown, violations - and outright ig...Bernie -<BR/><BR/>In Allentown, violations - and outright ignorance - of the Home Rule Charter is nothing new when it comes to our elected officials.<BR/><BR/>The rule is wrong and should be abolished.<BR/><BR/>However, I might be willing to keep it if Michael Donovan would keep his comments at council meetings to only three minutes. If he is concerned about the efficiency of meetings, that's a good place to start. <BR/><BR/>I also propose a one-hundred word limit for the "Councilor" on blog postings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-4125452012695350452009-03-23T18:27:00.000-04:002009-03-23T18:27:00.000-04:00A new O'Hare mancrush. I hope you bought more con...A new O'Hare mancrush. I hope you bought more condoms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-9221359841640809612009-03-23T18:19:00.000-04:002009-03-23T18:19:00.000-04:00Can I ask, why didn't Lou push to remove this rule...Can I ask, why didn't Lou push to remove this rule when he was on council two years ago or four years ago? This rule has been around a long time and Mike Donovan and Mike D'Amore both followed it. So I guess Lou had no problem when he an incumbent with this rule. Also, Lou is a very smart guy, he knew this rule exists, why did he not try to fight it when he knew he was running? If it is a clear cut a violation as you say Bernie then not only should Lou have no problem getting it overturned, but I am quite surprised he did not do anything about it when he was on council.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-70932294113960103302009-03-23T18:13:00.000-04:002009-03-23T18:13:00.000-04:00Michael (Donovan), I'll give you credit for engagi...Michael (Donovan), I'll give you credit for engaging and defending your views publicly. I appreciate and respect that. But honestly, your arguments are horrible. They fly in the face of the plain language of your own HRC. You are intelligent so you must have noticed that. I don't know how you can justify violating your own constitution, but it seems to me that you are ruled more by political expedience than logic or a desire for good government. I am very sorry, but this is basic stuff. If you can't be trusted to let people speak, you can't be trusted.Bernie O'Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756311150988957401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-17184127595109313232009-03-23T17:53:00.000-04:002009-03-23T17:53:00.000-04:00Did you see how many words Michael Donovan used in...Did you see how many words Michael Donovan used in his post? He must must be so smart. I'm glad I voted for him when I pushed the straight-party button!<BR/><BR/>Allentown Democrat VoterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-66854028713976260232009-03-23T17:51:00.000-04:002009-03-23T17:51:00.000-04:00I wonder if Mike Donovan ever addressed council wh...I wonder if Mike Donovan ever addressed council when he was a candidate. <BR/><BR/>Scott ArmstrongAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-82322587665903082472009-03-23T17:35:00.000-04:002009-03-23T17:35:00.000-04:00Michael Donovan is afraid to listen to three minut...Michael Donovan is afraid to listen to three minutes of criticism. Period. Spare the "efficiency" argument. Public comment is part of what you get paid to listen to. Three minutes doesn't even qualify for the "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen" routine.<BR/><BR/>Come on Mike. How about a little courage here? Three minutes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-90013218220452502682009-03-23T17:20:00.000-04:002009-03-23T17:20:00.000-04:00often in comment replies, another comment is inter...often in comment replies, another comment is interjected between when one begins to write, and when it is published, such was the case here. my zombie remark was in reply to pa iconoclast, not michael donovan. iconoclast and other anonymous commenters think lou's time has come and gone, they have no idea how much money lou has saved the taxpayers over the years, shaving a mil here and a mil there.michael molovinskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12581039755319742687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-82923012308036674092009-03-23T17:09:00.000-04:002009-03-23T17:09:00.000-04:00lou hershman brings out the worst in the democrati...lou hershman brings out the worst in the democratic zombie's, because he's a democrat willing to be a thorn in the side of their machine. if you think allentown compares to the city it was 20 years ago, you truly are a zombie. lou will win come november, despite all the insults heremichael molovinskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12581039755319742687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-10735622183090518562009-03-23T17:05:00.000-04:002009-03-23T17:05:00.000-04:00Greetings:Since I am the councilor being slammed h...Greetings:<BR/><BR/>Since I am the councilor being slammed here, I thought I would speak up.<BR/><BR/>Well, I guess I am the devil because I do feel that a city council is not only a place for citizens to have a voice, but also a place to do government business. From my perspective, and it is only my perspective, when a citizen announces candidacy, they become a public figure, and have opportunities for voice greater than a non-candidate citizen, which is why "courtesy" exists in the first place. <BR/><BR/>Now, on my blog, there have been many arguments made why I'm wrong (and even a nasty person who somehow is not the person I try to project myself as.). Some of those points have merit. I do believe people should have a voice. However, I also believe that there needs to be some efficiency and fairness in making decisions. <BR/><BR/>Therefore, I would rather reserve courtesy of the floor for individuals who have no other way to make a point to council, and simultaneously keep it manageable for those who have come to council so that they may do business in a timely fashion on items that are on the agenda. I would make this argument to any candidate by saying that he or she owes some courtesy to those who are not running. Of course, points can always be made by a "proxy" as Mr. Molivinsky notes.<BR/><BR/>I apologize to my critics who now feel that I have turned into this totalitarian pig who wants to thwart anyone's ability to have a voice in government. I don't believe that I am a pig nor a totalitarian. I try to develop my points of view as fairly as possible. And I have to draw a line somewhere. This is where I draw a line. I believe it is a reasonable rule.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I will also argue that city council is not a place for political debates by candidates at courtesy of the floor, which it would become because if you allow one, you MUST allow all. Nor are councilmembers supposed to be engaging in campaign debates. We have rules about that. Yes, one can be sly and be political, but you know, no system is perfect. <BR/><BR/>I don't see PA legislators or Congress having citizens, let alone candidates, speaking before their sessions. Do they? I may be wrong, but I don't think so.<BR/><BR/>I'm all for voice. But I'm also for structure and reasonableness. <BR/><BR/>One final note. I think that the debate on this and my blog is reasonable, and I think that there are arguments to be made on both sides. However, I refuse to be dragged into a namecalling, knock-down battle just to make points. The issue of appropriatness in structuring policy is always an important topic.<BR/><BR/>Mr. Hershman will attest that I have tried to answer or resolve every issue that he has raised with me (in writing or verbally). He makes some very interesting and valid points. Sometimes, I have provided information that has refutted what he feels is accurate. Other times, I have found evidence that confirms that at least a question needs to be asked.<BR/><BR/>So, if all of you who are critics wish to raise points with me, please do so. However, if you cannot be civil about it, you risk my not listening as intently. I may listen, but as with any social exchange, screaming and yelling does not usually get as much action as reasonable conversation.<BR/><BR/>Best regards, all.<BR/><BR/>Michael DonovanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9299655.post-46551118686303145422009-03-23T14:52:00.000-04:002009-03-23T14:52:00.000-04:00"Jesus, I agree with what Casey said yesterday, Th...<EM>"Jesus, I agree with what Casey said yesterday, That's really f**kng sad."</EM><BR/><BR/>Yes, it is, but you're better than that. Deep down, you know you can't have one set of rules for those you like and a different set for those you detest. Hate the player, but don't hate the game.Bernie O'Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756311150988957401noreply@blogger.com