Two people - Monkey Momma and Dr.Paige Van Wirt - took issue with me. I want to highlight their views.
Monkey Momma tees off on this sentence from my Wednesday story. "It seems that everyone has been subjected to horrifying sexual abuse in their teens or early twenties."
Actually, what it seems like is our society has a very pervasive sexual assault problem. One of the reasons this problem has not been effectively dealt with is our tendency to "laugh it off" or make light of what is really a very serious and sad problem. Victims, more often that not, fail to come forward in a timely manner simply because of the attitude represented in this very surprising and disappointing blog post.
The #metoo movement has made it acceptable to finally reveal past assaults that have haunted victims for many years. For the first time in my own memory, men & women are coming forward with their stories, and for that I very much admire them. Because of our society's tendency to make light of these horror stories, people need a lot of guts to reveal the predators in our midst.
As the mother of a son and a daughter, I am big believer in the Innocent Until Proven Guilty concept - in other words, you can't just totally believe every victim's account at face value. Evidence is needed before a life should be destroyed by would could be, theoretically, lies. However, when multiple victims come forward telling the SAME story about the SAME predator, and a pattern is revealed even years later, then it is (in my mind) safe to assume that these victims are collectively sharing accurate and real histories about criminals who have (so far) gone unpunished. In no way did these victims enjoy their torture, as your blog post seems to suggest. It is not flattering to be targeted by a pedophile or a rapist or sexual predator. Victims didn't earn their crimes, by either their actions or their "attractiveness" - they were simply targeted by sick criminals who have, up until now, enjoyed the tacit protection of a society that really could not give a shit.
I do not personally have a #metoo story. I have been damned lucky. I see now that so many of my close friends and family didn't escape their youth unscathed, and I thank the gods for my good fortune. I admire those who have finally found the courage to speak out about past horrors. You're lucky, Bernie. But just because you dodged a bullet, it doesn't mean the same bullets didn't strike someone else.
Dr. Paige Van Wirt went off on a comment I made defending my Wednesday story. " “I reject the notion that sexual abuse or even harassment is prevalent.”
Ask yourself why. Is it because you were victimized by false accusations? You clearly understand that having been a victim of false accusations does not mean is isn’t painfully prevalent. Part of the reason sexual harassment continues to be a problem, the reason why it continues to happen, is exactly because it is behavior that occurs away from cameras, other people, or any way to meaningfully ‘prove’ that it happened. If it was easy to prove then the perpetrators would not do it! The sudden deluge means that people who have for years, decades, nursed their own pain and memories in the dark, finally feel like there is a platform to share their experience and humiliation without people like you coming down on them and saying “there is no proof!” If the coach at Penn State had not caught Sandusky in the shower with those boys, would the problems not have happened because the boys could not ‘prove it’? If those boys came forward decades later and said “ yes, this horrible, life-changing thing happened to me”, some who even considered killing themselves because of the pain, would they not have been listened to because there was no proof, or not listened to because too many years had lapsed? Patterns emerge, there is strength in patterns, but at the end of the day this is a problem that occurs in the dark, and to dismiss the current wave of allegations as ‘simply unbelievable’ shows a poor understanding of this very real problem.
One of my points was that there was only anecdotal evidence of a problem, no hard facts. But as I looked into this question a little more closely, I discovered there are statistics that tell us that we may very well have a problem. Every 98 seconds, an American is sexually assaulted.
35 comments:
Men are animals. Seriously, We are obsessed with sex until we die. Look at the males of any species.
part of the problem lies with the far, far left. much like racism, they have redefined the term sexual assault. depending upon the definition the study is using, a asexual assault can be the commonly accepted scenario, or a pass gone awry.
I'm not saying these other incidents haven't occurred, when multiple victims come forward, clearly something has occurred, and the perpetrator is vile.
There is also an aspect here to the norms of acceptable behavior changing, and therefore victims are able to get more traction now than they may have at the time. To bring an accusation against someone with more power than you is an invitation to real retaliation and if you had no expectation of receiving any support or justice... why would anyone ever even bother?
My own #metoo experience was of an older boy sneaking up to me during a 9th grade study hall, putting his hands up my skirt under my underpants and violating me. In a matter of seconds. This occurred in a classroom IN FRONT OF my teacher and classmates. I didn’t wait decades to speak out, I screamed and pushed him away and brought my complaint forward immediately, but was told “Boys will be boys.” No one around me thought this was any big deal. Not only that, but we were equally written up for disrupting class - as if we were equal participants in some goofy prank. I was punished for screaming. I wonder what message that sent to the other children in the room who might have been dealing with their own assaults. I carried feelings of shame and fear for years.
The “boys will be boys” attitude didn’t mean it was any less traumatizing for me or that his behavior was acceptable. The same way we can now look back on lynchings, widely accepted by some communities at the time, and say “that was wrong” and wish the perpetrators could be held accountable.
Some might say that it’s unfair to hold perpetrators accountable for harassment or assault that was, at the time, considered a minor infraction if anything at all, but I don’t personally feel that Hall passes need to be doled out, and I certainly don’t think that the passing of time before a victim feels empowered to speak out is reason to doubt their credibility.
Remember when SChinooki was boasting about "blanking" drunk chicks and asking/encouraging his Army buddies if they have done the same? The "drunk" part is what bothers me. Why do they have to be drunk? Very differnt from trying to get a kiss on a first official date.
think about how wider the scope of the problem is when you consider the number of people who were victimized but haven't yet found their voice to name their accusers or speak about what happened. it's scary.
it's about education now--how do we educate our children about being victimized by people they know and trust? or strangers? what's next?
prevention is far better than the alternative....
The reason why it's "anecdotal evidence" is that many women fear the stigma of being a victim, or fear the reprisal of their abuser. Look at any newspaper and see the stories where PFAs do not protect them.
I don't think we can compartmentalize this current rash of stories as "old white guys, male privilege". That's just what is happening now. But there are stories in the local papers every day of some young woman getting abused or assaulted. It's pervasive.
You linked to a survey by a group that seems to be honest and does good work. However, surveys are only as good as their design, and even organizations that do good have a vested interest in crafting a helpful survey. I can't tell how the survey defined "assault".
Despite our technological advances, human behavior is still analogue, not digital.
Let's take a look at some popular culture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZmvleFtR1A
Is this "assault"? What if we stop it at 0:50, is it assault? What if the outcome had been Penny pushing Leonard away and screaming "don't you ever do that again!"
Would that be assault?
Would Leonard have any way of knowing at 0:30 whether what he's about to do might be considered "assault"?
Bernie, thanks for being open minded and addressing this issue again.
I remember taking a Human Development class in college. In the chapter on sexual development, there was a quiz outlining different situations and we were asked to define whether we considered the situation as a sexual assault. The situations ranged from clear assault (forcible rape by a stranger) to the benign (telling an off-color joke). However, one question, I remember well:
"Two people who have been sexually active in the past are sleeping in the same bed. The male wakes up and while his partner is still asleep, he takes off her underpants and starts penetrating her. She wakes up as he climaxes. Do you consider this an assault?" Only me (a guy) and one other co-ed (a female) raised their hand." Even the professor called us a little prudish and said we don't know their entire sexual history together.
I still stand by my raised hand.
Just so everyone is clear, Bernie said go ahead.
Bernie:
You and I have similar senses of humor, and your posts reminded me of something. About fifteen years ago a colleague mentioned that he used to be an altar boy, and that years later he learned that a friend who served with him was a clergy abuse victim. I razzed my colleague, asking if he felt left out and undesirable. We often razzed each other about "off-color" stuff like this in a friendly way. In retrospect I see from Monkey Momma and Dr. Van Wirt's comments how inappropriate that was of me. Thanks for amplifying their thoughts, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Any victim in earshot could have felt a little more oppressed by my comments which I thought were edgy albeit harmless kidding around. I was mistaken.
No single person is responsible for creating the climate that allows abusers and harassers to get away with their behavior. We did not consciously choose to set things up this way, rather we were born into it. Luckily we all have the choice to speak up or to act when we see an opportunity to stop it.
As a flood of people speak up about past injustice, I believe we are seeing the beginning of a shift towards greater justice and compassion in human relations, and in my opinion that is a truly wondrous and historic sight.
Franken was a two-bit comedian, even in his prime. His skits on SNL were as lame as could be, and let's TRY to forget his cringe-worthy attempt at acting in "Stuart Saves His Family." That bomb earned a 27% rating on Rotten Tomatoes. How that idiot ever became a U.S. Senator is beyond belief. The good folks of Minnesota must have putty for brains to elect him not once, but twice! Now he is in the spotlight of the recent sexual harassment craze. If the press digs more deeply into his background, as a writer for a deplorable Playboy column, and his raunchy skits for SNL, they will expose a person hardly fit to be a member of the Senate.
"Is There a Sexual Assault Epidemic?"
NO. Epidemic no. "Is there sexual Assault" yes, everyday.
This has all been verified by our Commander-in-Chief, if you got money, and power over any women, "you can just grab'em by the pussy".
What a nice man, where would we be now if Trump had not lead the way. Certainly nobody would be asking this question and we could get back to business as usual.
"where would we be now if Trump had not lead the way"
We'd only have Bill Clinton, Al Franken, Kevin Spacey, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Ben Afleck, Anthony Weiner, George H. W. Bush, and dozens of other people who we've mostly never heard of before to talk about.
But then I guess that wouldn't give you your TDS hit for the day.
November 17, 2017 at 11:46 AM...Anonymous said...Franken was a two-bit comedian...a person hardly fit to be a member of the Senate
What you think of him as a comedian or where he stands on issues has nothing to do with him being a fit to be a member of the Senate. What is at issue is whether he has ever harassed any of his staff or anyone else since he became a serious member of congress.
How about Trump's transgressions before he quit the entertainment business to became POTUS. Why would Trump's be OK if Franken's is not? If it's not OK for Franken why not make Trump's past part of your same justification for getting rid of them both? Which should be of greater concern. Franken one of only 100 members in the senate or the #1 former entertainer in the White House?
As Hillary said of similar charges leveled against Bill, these are simply bimbo eruptions. As Bill's campaign guy, Carville, said at the time, "when you drag a hundred dollar bill through a trailer park, anything can happen." I'm with the Clintons, to whom Trump was a contributor at the time. These bimbos are not believable.
at 2:55 PM
What is different about Trump, than everyone you mentioned, Trump was the only one to say the truth about power and money and women, the others bullshit you about how fair things are, and where it's not, how they'll fix it.
You may not like it, but as with everything, women not excluded, power and money does what it wants, and Trump just gold plates that truth for all to see.
3:49
THAT'S what you were saying? I read it to mean that without Trump, we would have no need to be discussing sexual assault.
You must have a different idea of how words go together than I do.
3:58pm
I have different ideas that come together as words.
how many voices do you hear speaking those words?
Correction- Bono was a US Rep not Senator. But two-bit nevertheless...
And as far as Trump is concerned... being a single Playboy or one-time divorcee certainly does NOT disqualify you for the Presidency. Not allegations of abuse have ever been legitimately been charged against him. So get over your DTS and move on. Your weak candidate LOST!!
Since 5:12 personally attacks another reader while praising Authoritarian Donald Trump, she is deleted.
While on the subject, Trump has avoided saying anything negative about More while bashing Franken. Thus,in addition to all his other negative qualities, he is a hypocrite. I would not want him near children bc if his example, but this is what school children will see.
The Trump Moore playbook is to blame the acusers and blame then media. If that is what MAGA is all about, rememeber that the next time you see a red hat.
Still nonapology for the shameful remarks on the trump tapes.
This issue should transcend politics.
Women are animals too. Master manipulators who know how to shake their tail feathers and get males to do anything they want. Look at the mating practices of species like the praying mantis.
So when is it appropriate to unleash your throbbing python during an intimate encounter. Times are confusing.
I think it's a major sign of progress that the subjects of sexual assault and indecent assault are being discussed so widely today.
9:26 AM linked to a clip of a man kissing a woman. He asks, "is this assault?" At first, I thought it was obnoxious of 9:26 to ask this. I tend to think he's attempting to prove that any physical affection can be deemed assault. But then I thought, why not try to discuss this particular video clip as requested, so that people can be assured that the difference between an acceptable "pass" and an assault is obvious?
If 9:26 is truly curious about the legal answer to this, he (or she) would be well advised to google and read state law on sexual and indecent assault. I mean, honestly, if you're confused about this, you really should do some research. It all comes down to consent and the ability to say no. It's not complicated, even though lawyers can make anything sound complicated.
In the video clip, it is most certainly not assault. One of the components of indecent assault, as I understand it, is that it happens by "threat of forcible compulsion that would prevent resistance by a person of reasonable resolution." Since there was no resistance, and (more importantly to the legal definition) resistance was not prevented, it is not assault. And, if the woman had balked and said, "no," and if then the man stopped, then it would also not be assault, because there was reasonable resolution. HOWEVER, if she told him to stop and he grabbed her tighter and continued his actions, then it would fall into an assault category. I think it's a very clear and obvious distinction.
The stories of assault that we are hearing about Weinstein and Spacey and the like are NOT innocent kisses. Go back and read those allegations. Are all those allegations true? I have no idea! But...the fact that there are so MANY and from so many different sources, with so many similarities...well, it's enough for me to conclude that those guys are scum, regardless of the legal ability to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt in a court of law.
The fact that there are so many allegations of assault doesn't mean that every physical affect is assault - it only means that there's a lot of sexual/indecent assault.
Thanks for not walking away from this subject, Bernie. I appreciate your willingness to look at the actual evidence at hand. I'm sorry I didn't comment earlier on this, but better late than never.
Thanks for this well written response monkey I echo these thoughts but would add this:
Popular culture is full of narratives of the “hero” making bold romantic gestures and taking a chance on whether the recipient shares their feelings (or will suddenly realize they do upon being passionately kissed).
This is fiction. It makes for good TV.
In reality, most women prefer not to be surprised by someone grabbing the back of their head and forcefully kissing them. Even if the feelings ARE reciprocated... better to let us know what’s coming either by using words and asking or telling, or leaning in gently so we can meet you there. It doesn’t ruin the mood to check in with your partner - it makes it better. I’ve had many a date say “I really want to kiss you now.” And that’s a wonderful thing to hear. Never once has the lack of spontaneous surprise action been cause for me to not feel the spark when we kissed.
Which is all to say... it’s probsbly not assault, but it’s still something that could potentially make a person feel very violated. And if the person doing the kissing is a boss, a teacher, a powerful Hollywood mogul, politician, an adult making the moves on a teenager, or any of a dozen other relationship dynamics, the power imbalance makes these violations feel that much more like harassment or assault.
The imbalance of power can make the “saying no” part feel all but impossible. There may not be a case for court in every instance, but that doesn’t make it right.
Women get angry and will break up with s man because he was not, "forceful enough' he didn't, "take the initiative and go for it". I think it is appropriate to weed out the Weinstrins and Cosbys' but try to have a conversation amongst yourselves on what you want and don't want.
Women are hardly universal on this point, so how the Hell should a man proceed/ I say body cams!
I have never known a woman, outside a consensual dom/sub relationship, who was upset that their male partners weren’t “forceful” enough, and if you don’t know the difference between “taking initiative” and nonconsensual touching, I suggest you think on that a while and ask some women in your life to tell you their thoughts directly.
This subject is not a joke and Mr Ohare writing about it show just what a sexist pig he really is.
you're an actual moron
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